On 13 Feb 2013, at 16:53, Stephen P. King wrote:
On 2/13/2013 10:26 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 13 Feb 2013, at 06:45, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Tuesday, February 12, 2013 10:09:40 PM UTC-5, stathisp wrote:
On Wed, Feb 13, 2013 at 12:24 PM, Craig Weinberg
> "1. Do you consider yourself to have experienced the torture in
the case of
> the Restorers, even though you no longer remember it? If not,
> "2. If yes, do you consider yourself to have experienced the
torture in the
> case of the Duplicators? If yes, please explain, if not, please
> The idea that atoms can be duplicated is an assumption. If we
only look at
> the part of a plant that we can see and tried to duplicate that,
> not have an roots and it would die. I think of the roots of
atoms to be
> experiences through time. Just having a person who seems to be
> you according to an electron microscope does not make them you.
> 3. Both scenarios I think are based on misconceptions. Nothing
> universe can be duplicated absolutely and nothing can be erased
> because what we see of time is, again, missing the roots that
extend out to
> eternity. I find it bizarre that we find it so easy to doubt
> realism when it comes to physics but not when it comes to
> Somehow we think that the idea that this moment of 'now' is
> physics to be universal and uniform.
What is to stop duplication of, say, the simplest possible conscious
being made up of only a few atoms?
Because I suspect that conscious beings are not made of atoms,
rather atoms exist in the experience of beings.
I have some questions but they are not well-formed, my
apologies. I hope you can make some sense of them. I agree generally
that "atoms exist in the experience of beings" only. We (the in the
plural sense) happen to be able to agree on the locations and other
properties of objects within our individual 1p.
OK, as they will be shared in the plural "we".
But that's a consequence of the fact that we might be 3p-duplicable.
If we are 3p-duplicatable then how do we obtain the non-
clonability of quantum states?
Because below our substitution level, matter is (re)-defined by all
computations going through our state, so the matter which constitute
our local material brain cannot be duplicated. It involves the
infinite sum on the whole UD*.
Experiences cannot be duplicated literally, because I suspect that
unique is the only thing that experiences can literally
I agree with this, in the sense that this follows also from
computationalism, and thus 3p-duplicability at some level.
Could it be that the 3p-duplicatability is possible but global 1p
correlations of these is not possible,
Hmm... we need the 1p correlations to trust the doctor, and introduce
them, by chance perhaps, when betting on the correct level, or below.
thus obtaining the no cloning of QM?
An 1p-experience is not duplicable, as it is the unique experience
of a unique being.
Does this follow from the uniqueness of a fixed point (for a given
group of transformations on a closed (or semi-closed) collection?
You can get it intuitively. Even John Clark agrees that two absolutely
identical computations, in case they support a mind, will support a
unique mind. That's why in fine a mind is associated with all
computations going through the states, and UDA makes matter redefined
by the 1p relative measure.
It can still be duplicated relatively to some observer, but not
relatively to the experiencer himself.
So would relate them to each other?
The density of the sharable computations would relate them to each
other, with some high normal probability.
Again what you say concur with comp, making astonishing why you are
using those points against the possibility of 3p-duplication, which
is so much well illustrated by nature, as life is constant self-
body change and duplication (as Stathis argues convincingly).
To sum up: with comp, we are 3p-duplicable; the 1p, as attributed
by a 3p-person, is relatively duplicable. The 1p, seen from the 1p
view, is not duplicable. Like in Everett QM, the 1p can't feel the
split in any way.
It seems to me that you are assuming a special observer that can
distinguish all 3p-persons from each other. In my thinking this is
To just enunciate comp we have to agree on the (sigma_1, tiny part of)
arithmetic, which gives the whole set of possible 3p relations from
which the dreams emerges and cohere (or not).
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