On 2/15/2013 12:05 AM, freqflyer07281972 wrote:

    Sure, but they are ontological conjugates, i.e. you can be chosen
    locally without having the ability to make choices yourself
    (theoretically anyways), but you can't be chosen without the
    presence of some choosing agency in the universe.

BINGO - here's a smuggled premise, the premise of 'choosing agency' - why would there be agency to any choosing force? this is like making the same mistake as eager adaptationist versions of evolution that import 'just so' stories to explain what are, in essence, really quite blind and arbitrary design decisions that propagate from one generation to the next (spandrels- steven j. gould), for the simple reason that they a) didn't die before they had more offspring and b) had offspring to propagate that feature...I would say, on the contrary, that is is quite easy to be chosen without the presence of a choosing agency, and the fact of natural selection proves this (as far as i am aware, no one has ever said natural selection is an 'agent', complete with all of the free will ramifications that this term implies)


Wait, what? Flyer, you didn't define the symmetry that made "agency" vanish! y offspring are not perfect copies of me! Thus their choices are different from my choices. So how do I get credit for the appearance of agency of my off-spring? If there is no agency, how the heck does it seem to me that I have agency to the point of experiencing it's 'agency-ness' directly 1p? Spandrels must be all exactly isomorphic to Gould's reasoning to be sound. I am saying that natural selection is an 'agent'! Any act of selection implies an agent of some kind unless that act is forced.



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