On 1/28/2013 5:37 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Sunday, January 27, 2013 10:24:57 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
On 1/27/2013 7:13 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:
On Sunday, January 27, 2013 10:06:37 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:
On 1/27/2013 2:35 PM, freqflyer07281972 wrote:
I've been following this group a lot. I read it everyday and enjoy all
wonderful stuff that comes up, even if some of it tends towards ad
argument from authority, and petitio principi. Hey, we're humans,
means we get to make these fallacies, in good conscience or bad.
Anyway, I wondered about what anyone/everyone thought about the notion
'chosenness' as a way to understand where we are here in the world. It
to me that concepts like MWI, Bruno's comp/mech hypothesis and the
numbers' ideas of subjectivity, and even Leibniz's 'best of all possible
worlds' don't actually do something like flee away from our everyday
responsibility to accept the basic fact that we have been CHOSEN -- and
say this, please don't immediately put a bunch of theological baggage
I'm not saying God chose this reality as opposed to another, although
might be a convenient shorthand. But what I am saying is that, out of
staggering possibilities that we know exist with regards to our
galaxy, our solar system, our planet, our society, and even our
selves, things could have very easily turned out to be different than
were. The fact that they have turned out in just this way and not
indicates this kind of chosenness, and along with it, comes a certain
of responsibility, I guess?
It seems to me that all the various 'everything' hypotheses (MWI, comp,
Leibniz, and others) try to apply the Copernican principle to its
point. True enough, there is from a purely 3p point of view nothing
about our cosmic situation re: our planet and our sun. BUT, from an
existential 1p point of view there is a huge privilege that we have,
are sentient observers, who love, feel pain, feel desire, and long for
There's a desire to respect the Copernican principle (don't assume we're
'special') but also to avoid randomness. This then leads to the
that *everything* (in some sense) exists. That way you avoid randomness
without assuming that we're special.
Moreover, the 3p point of view is a pure abstraction, kind of like
picture of a meal rather than the actual meal. How do we know what any
3p account of truth would be? What would it even look like? A universe
observers. A falling tree without a hearer/listener. This, to me, is
Aren't things like MWI of quantum physics and comp hypothesis of
dovetailer trying to, at a fundamental and existential level, an
try to run away from the concreteness and absolute 'givenness' (gift)
world as we find it? And isn't our role, in creation, as freely choosing
beings (sorry, John Clark, free will is more than just a noise) to
will make other people with us now and in the future feel more love and
pain? And isn't this why we were chosen?
To say we're chosen is just another way to avoid randomness.
To say we are avoiding randomness is to assume that there is something
randomness to be embraced.
That's what being 'chosen' implies - that there is a 'choser', an
teleology to be embraced.
There doesn't have to be just one chooser. The universe could be made of choosers that
can appear random when seen from a distant or incomplete frame of reference.
But do they then make a random choice? And how do they effect this choice? And where do
they appear? It seems you are just spinning fairy tales.
But in a universe where there were no choosers, how would it be possible for anything to
be 'embraced', let alone non-randomness?
Before QM, determinism was embraced by many thinkers.
Why should anything that exists want to avoid randomness?
Ask somebody else, I'm not avoiding it.
I'm talking about in principle, ontologically, how is it possible for anything to 'want
to avoid randomness' if there is no ontological alternative?
Why do you think there is no alternative? You've introduced 'choice' which I assume you
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