On 1/27/2013 7:13 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

On Sunday, January 27, 2013 10:06:37 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote:

    On 1/27/2013 2:35 PM, freqflyer07281972 wrote:
    Hey everyone,

    I've been following this group a lot. I read it everyday and enjoy all of 
    wonderful stuff that comes up, even if some of it tends towards ad hominem,
    argument from authority, and petitio principi. Hey, we're humans, right? 
That means
    we get to make these fallacies, in good conscience or bad.

    Anyway, I wondered about what anyone/everyone thought about the notion of
    'chosenness' as a way to understand where we are here in the world. It 
seems to me
    that concepts like MWI, Bruno's comp/mech hypothesis and the 'dreams of 
    ideas of subjectivity, and even Leibniz's 'best of all possible worlds' 
    actually do something like flee away from our everyday responsibility to 
accept the
    basic fact that we have been CHOSEN -- and when I say this, please don't
    immediately put a bunch of theological baggage on it. I'm not saying God 
chose this
    reality as opposed to another, although this might be a convenient 
shorthand. But
    what I am saying is that, out of all the staggering possibilities that we 
    exist with regards to our universe, our galaxy, our solar system, our 
planet, our
    society, and even our individual selves, things could have very easily 
turned out
    to be different than they were. The fact that they have turned out in just 
this way
    and not another indicates this kind of chosenness, and along with it, comes 
    certain degree of responsibility, I guess?

    It seems to me that all the various 'everything' hypotheses (MWI, comp, 
    and others) try to apply the Copernican principle to its breaking point. 
    enough, there is from a purely 3p point of view nothing special about our 
    situation re: our planet and our sun. BUT, from an existential 1p point of 
    there is a huge privilege that we have, i.e. we are sentient observers, who 
    feel pain, feel desire, and long for transcendence.

    There's a desire to respect the Copernican principle (don't assume we're 
    but also to avoid randomness.  This then leads to the hypothesis that 
    (in some sense) exists.  That way you avoid randomness without assuming 
that we're

    Moreover, the 3p point of view is a pure abstraction, kind of like eating 
    picture of a meal rather than the actual meal. How do we know what any kind 
of 3p
    account of truth would be? What would it even look like? A universe with no
    observers. A falling tree without a hearer/listener. This, to me, is 

    Aren't things like MWI of quantum physics and comp hypothesis of universal
    dovetailer trying to, at a fundamental and existential level, an attempt to 
try to
    run away from the concreteness and absolute 'givenness' (gift) of the world 
as we
    find it? And isn't our role, in creation, as freely choosing beings (sorry, 
    Clark, free will is more than just a noise) to choose what will make other 
    with us now and in the future feel more love and less pain? And isn't this 
why we
    were chosen?

    To say we're chosen is just another way to avoid randomness.

To say we are avoiding randomness is to assume that there is something other than randomness to be embraced.

That's what being 'chosen' implies - that there is a 'choser', an alternative teleology to be embraced.

Why should anything that exists want to avoid randomness?

Ask somebody else, I'm not avoiding it.


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