On 17 Feb 2013, at 21:36, John Mikes wrote:

Bruno - we, at least, having learned the English language, should 'dig' into the meaning of the words. "Chosen" is the result of a selection from more than one alternates.
Who are the others, from which WE may be "CHOSEN"?

Perhaps those who don't handle so well the english language. (I am joking).

Look, I am not the one saying that we have been chosen. On the contrary, I defended the Copernician idea, that we are not chosen at all. Like I said below, comp explain why we *might* feel like having been chosen.




the devils in hell, or the angels in heaven? or the other animals?
This is why I like to clarify the WORDS before submerging into verbose treatises on debatable concepts. Then again: "chosen" is ambiguous, e.g. in a certain decimation (war? revolution?) the 'chosen' get executed, so it is not such a joy to be CHOSEN.

You are right.

Anyone surviving a crash plane, among many passengers who died, develops a kind of guilt and a feeling of having been chosen, but this is an "illusion" easily explained by comp (and accepted by those surviving passengers most of the time, but this might not change their direct feeling).

If you are duplicated into Washington and Moscow, in the usual manner, both the copies will feel like having be chosen for that city, but there is only memories, personal diaries and direct access to them.

Now comp is not developed so much that we can be sure that we are NOT chosen, independently of the fact that we might find this not really reasonable to think. That might indeed remain forever undecided, except locally, when, after dying you wake up in a matrix build by our descendant 10^4 after JC, and remembering things like "Oh, I will try to relive that John's Mike life which looks interesting". Then, you will know, locally, who made the choice of being "John Mike", for awhile. Perhaps a descendent of you.

Bruno





John Mikes

On Sun, Feb 17, 2013 at 9:12 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 27 Jan 2013, at 23:35, freqflyer07281972 wrote:

Hey everyone,

I've been following this group a lot. I read it everyday and enjoy all of the wonderful stuff that comes up, even if some of it tends towards ad hominem, argument from authority, and petitio principi. Hey, we're humans, right? That means we get to make these fallacies, in good conscience or bad.

Anyway, I wondered about what anyone/everyone thought about the notion of 'chosenness' as a way to understand where we are here in the world. It seems to me that concepts like MWI, Bruno's comp/mech hypothesis and the 'dreams of numbers' ideas of subjectivity, and even Leibniz's 'best of all possible worlds' don't actually do something like flee away from our everyday responsibility to accept the basic fact that we have been CHOSEN -- and when I say this, please don't immediately put a bunch of theological baggage on it. I'm not saying God chose this reality as opposed to another, although this might be a convenient shorthand. But what I am saying is that, out of all the staggering possibilities that we know exist with regards to our universe, our galaxy, our solar system, our planet, our society, and even our individual selves, things could have very easily turned out to be different than they were. The fact that they have turned out in just this way and not another indicates this kind of chosenness, and along with it, comes a certain degree of responsibility, I guess?

It seems to me that all the various 'everything' hypotheses (MWI, comp, Leibniz, and others) try to apply the Copernican principle to its breaking point. True enough, there is from a purely 3p point of view nothing special about our cosmic situation re: our planet and our sun. BUT, from an existential 1p point of view there is a huge privilege that we have, i.e. we are sentient observers, who love, feel pain, feel desire, and long for transcendence.

Moreover, the 3p point of view is a pure abstraction, kind of like eating the picture of a meal rather than the actual meal. How do we know what any kind of 3p account of truth would be? What would it even look like? A universe with no observers. A falling tree without a hearer/listener. This, to me, is nonsense.

Aren't things like MWI of quantum physics and comp hypothesis of universal dovetailer trying to, at a fundamental and existential level, an attempt to try to run away from the concreteness and absolute 'givenness' (gift) of the world as we find it?

Those things are not necessarily in opposition, once we find a way to attribute first-person-ness to some entities.
We only try to figure out what is happening.




And isn't our role, in creation, as freely choosing beings (sorry, John Clark, free will is more than just a noise) to choose what will make other people with us now and in the future feel more love and less pain? And isn't this why we were chosen?

I don't think we are chosen, at least no more than insects and plants. We have the tools for explaining whay we feel unique, and chosen, but that can be a sort of illusion, like with personal identity. But *we* can make choice, indeed. This makes intuitive sense, and is explainable in mechanical terms.

Bruno




I'll go back to lurking now, but I'd appreciate any thoughts you might have on this reflection of mine.

Cheers,

Dan

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