More than economical,I favor an ideological drive for history, which is
feeded back by economics of course. Economy is an important part of the
current state of things. But ideology depict what to do and which goals
achieve in the future with the current state of things.
The main source of totalitarianism in the 30´s was the excess of
expectations created in the intelectuals during the great economic bubble
of the happy 20s. It is there when eugenesy was conceived as the way to
improve the human race under central control. Mass sterilization of ill
people was contemplated as the standard way to improve the healt and
intelligence of the population that was suppossed to handle the new
complicated machines that the infinite progress would produce. It was
during the Great Depression when this utopia was mixed with nationalistic
every-nation-for-himself ideas in an increasing cold war of tariff
retaliations.
But the evil was already there, in the happy 20s when inhumane measures
such are sterilization where accepted and the economic boom was inflated by
excess of paper money supply by corrupt central bankers. In the 30 Jews
were hated in all Europe as the responsibles of the Depression.
Hitler invented nothing and he was acclaimed by many people in all the
world, like before was Mussolini.They were simply the logical leaders that
many people, with the mainstream ideas of their time were expecting.
All this remind me something....
2013/8/22 Pierz <pier...@gmail.com>
> Well thank you for the lecture on cultural/historical relativism. But the
> fact remains ("fact" inasmuch as it is accepted by mainstream historians,
> unlike your alternate universe "facts") that Nazism could only take hold
> because of the economic privations resulting from the reparations imposed
> by the Allies in WW1. It's a speculation, not a fact, that had Hitler not
> risen to power, fascism would have become politically mainstream. There are
> countless contingent ways history might have worked out had WW2 not
> occurred and I am suggesting that it is a perfectly plausible and equally
> unverifiable speculation that economic recovery would have led to extreme
> ideologies falling from favour in Europe. Fascism was extreme even in its
> day, and economically comfortable democracies generally find Total War to
> be unconducive to enjoying their afternoon tea.
>
>
> On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 10:41:43 PM UTC+10, smi...@zonnet.nl wrote:
>
>> A rapid descent into extremism can be caused by factors such as
>> economic desperation. However, you can also have a gradual change in
>> society and then people are always indioctrinated that their current
>> norms and values are correct. So, there was a time when when drawing
>> and quartering was a normal form of punishment, and we gradually moved
>> away from that. If you move very fast away from this, then there will
>> be big differences in the opnions of people about wthe current system
>> being ok. or totally unacceptable.
>>
>> We are thus more vulnerable to extremism due to gradual changes in
>> society, e.g. a Hitler coming to power who doesn't need to start a war
>> (suppose e.g. that Poland would ahve been annexed without the Western
>> powers declaring war on Germany). So, Hitler could have remained a
>> popular dictator in Germany and the Holocaust would have had a
>> competely different character.
>>
>> From the point of view of an extremist, the extremists views are the
>> norm. So, the extremist doesn't see that he is an extremist. It is only
>> in case of a rapid descent into extremism that there will be many other
>> peole who are not extremist who can see this, also the extremists would
>> find them having to defend their views more.
>>
>> You an then also ask if we are actually already extremists from some
>> reasonable point of view that our distant descendants may have. E.g.
>> the way we run the World economy with billions of people living in
>> poverty could be called totally immoral by people who live a century
>> from now. They could judge us in a similar way as the would judge Nazis.
>>
>> Or, as in a recent SF movie, you can have an alien visiting us who then
>> judges us to be guilty of mass genocide against the environment and who
>> then decides that we should all be exterminated so that life on Earth
>> can be saved from us.
>>
>> If in one reasonable value system something can be genocide on an
>> unimaginable scale, while in another one it is business as usual, then
>> the processes that led to this being flagged as "business as usual" in
>> our brains have their origin in arbitrary events in our history, as
>> there is no preference for the flagging as "business as usual" being
>> preferred given the way our brain works.
>>
>>
>> Saibal
>>
>>
>> Citeren Pierz <pie...@gmail.com>:
>>
>> > "...since first of all the additional happiness in those non-WW3
>> > branches..." What I mean of course is the additional happiness in the
>> WW3
>> > branches. The non-WW3 branches are much *less* happy right Saibal?
>> >
>> > On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 9:49:59 AM UTC+10, Pierz wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Self-contradictory. You've got to follow your own theories to their
>> >> logical conclusions. *Which* Western/third world would have been
>> better off
>> >> if WW3 hadn't happened? Since "everything happens" in some branch of
>> the
>> >> multiverse, surely there are innumerable branches in which the world
>> is
>> >> better off for not having undergone the horrors of WW3. Or are you
>> saying
>> >> that, if you summed human happiness in the branches of the
>> hypothetical
>> >> branch of the multiverse in which WW3 didn't happen, and compared it
>> to the
>> >> sum of human happiness in the branches in which it did, it would be
>> higher
>> >> in the ones in which it didn't? Put that way, it becomes a rather
>> absurd
>> >> claim wouldn't you say? And dubious - since first of all the
>> additional
>> >> happiness in those non-WW3 branches has to make up for the staggering,
>> >> unimaginable misery of the holocaust, the Russian front, Hiroshima etc
>> etc
>> >> before "getting ahead" at all, and secondly because this is all based
>> on
>> >> the theory that Nazism not being "debunked" (It was exterminated)
>> would
>> >> have led to an incorporation of fascist ideology into the mainstream
>> of
>> >> global social organization, an extremely debatable proposition.
>> Extremism
>> >> is fostered by economic desperation. If the world had had time to
>> fully
>> >> recover from the depression, notions of invading the world would have
>> >> looked a lot less attractive to the fat, comfortable citizens of an
>> >> affluent western Europe, and Nazism may well have died a quiet death
>> >> without the need for apocalypse. But of course I won't argue that's
>> what
>> >> *would* have happened, because making predictions about the
>> consequences of
>> >> any single event or change in world history is impossible. If you'd
>> like to
>> >> disagree, please tell us all what the consequences of the Arab
>> uprisings
>> >> will be in twenty years' time. We'll check back in then and see how
>> well
>> >> you performed.
>> >>
>> >> On Wednesday, August 21, 2013 8:56:57 AM UTC+10, smi...@zonnet.nlwrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> Roger may start a discussion on politics and presents some very
>> narrow
>> >>> minded views, but I can present a different view that may be totally
>> >>> politically incorect but is i.m.o. the right view.
>> >>>
>> >>> Not only is the 3rd World better off with WWII having happened, the
>> >>> Western World is also better off. Without WWII, Nazism would not have
>> >>> been debunked and we would gradually have evolved to become less free
>> >>> societies. Ideas that are totally politically incorrect like
>> >>> euthanizing old and handicap people to save health care costs would
>> >>> have been business as usual.
>> >>>
>> >>> The fundamental mistake Roger makes is to think that the core moral
>> >>> values we have today are universal and that you can look back many
>> >>> decades and then condemn e.g. the Muslim Brotherhood for having
>> >>> supported the Nazis back then.
>> >>>
>> >>> In the end, Roger's brain is just executing a prgram, whatever is
>> >>> against his moral values is encoded in his brain and that information
>> >>> did not come out of thin air. Had history run a different course (and
>> >>> history has run a different course in different sectors of the
>> >>> multiverse), Roger would have supported Nazi policies himself. In
>> fact
>> >>> we can be sure that such a Nazi version of Roger exsts in the
>> >>> multiverse, because all possible programs exists.
>> >>>
>> >>> Saibal
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Citeren spudb...@aol.com:
>> >>>
>> >>> > I do not see why Roger, needs, politics in this forum, but, so be
>> it.
>> >>> > Smitra expresses a view that decides the US, has to be ruined for
>> the
>> >>> > evil it has conspired against the wonderful, and innocent, people's
>> >>> > of the 3rd world. I am guessing that when the ISI strikes India,
>> >>> > using enhanced fission devices, he will be content that they
>> detonate
>> >>> > it only on legitimate military targets? Enjoy.
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > -----Original Message-----
>> >>> > From: smitra <smi...@zonnet.nl>
>> >>> > To: everything-list <everyth...@googlegroups.com>
>> >>> > Sent: Tue, Aug 20, 2013 8:13 am
>> >>> > Subject: Re: The Nazi History of the Muslim Brotherhood
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Also I believe that 9/11 was a good thing, albeit it would have
>> been
>> >>> > etter if Bin Laden had focusses only on legitimate military targets
>> >>> > ike the White House, the US Congress, the Senate and the Pentagon.
>> >>> >
>> >>> > iteren Roger Clough <rcl...@verizon.net>:
>> >>> >>
>> >>> > The Nazi history of the terrorist Muslim Brotherhood
>> >>> >
>> >>> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?**v=9jk4a3Kk6-Y<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jk4a3Kk6-Y>
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Dr. Roger B Clough NIST (ret.) [1/1/2000]
>> >>> > See my Leibniz site at
>> >>> > http://independent.academia.**edu/RogerClough<http://independent.academia.edu/RogerClough>
>> >>> >
>> >>> > --
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