# Re: What gives philosophers a bad name?

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On 15 Sep 2013, at 18:29, John Clark wrote:```
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```On Sun, Sep 15, 2013  Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

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> As long as you suggest that there are things "made of" things, you are staying in the Aristotelian frame. Other can suggest that there are no such things at all, just natural numbers relative computations,
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So you are suggesting that a thing like broken glass is made of numbers,
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????

I was just saying that things are not made up of things.

A broken glass is NOT made of number. That has no meaning at all.

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What happens is that addition and multiplication of natural numbers emulate dreams, which might be dream of a broken glass.
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fine, and who knows it might even be true, but don't tell me there is no such thing as a thing, that's just more gibberish.
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It is a matter of tedious, and not so simple, exercise to see that the computations exist in some definite sense when we postulate arithmetic. (This is done in good textbook, and very well done in Epstein & Carnielli, but also in Boolos & Jeffrey). Physical things then appears as stable percept by persons living those dreams.
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>> By "machine" I assume you mean a deterministic process.

> A machine is not a process,

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Make up your mind! First you say everything is the process of "natural numbers" in "relative computations" and then you say "digital machines, which are defined in term of number relations" are an exception to this because what they do "is not a process". The sum of number relations is not a process?? None of this makes any sense to me.
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Some number relation defines some machines, or some programs, which are static entities. *Other number relations, involving the preceding one, defines computations, or processes, ...
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A machine, in that setting is basically one number, relative to some universal number. A computation might be codes by one number, but is better seen as a sequence of numbers, coding the states corresponding to that computation.
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Bruno

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John K Clark

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http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/

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