On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 9:16 PM, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: > Telmo, thanks for your effort of replying. > However... (there is always one): > You haven't seen ALL and the BEST robots, have you?
I admit my ignorance, of course. > Batteries are some > primitive gadgets for a starting line of development. What is "deeply"? It's akin to "fractal" in the sense I'm thinking. Organs, tissues, cells, mitochondria -- or whatever the equivalent of these things are. > And > what is that 'energy' you invoke? (And: YES, they CAN rebuild damaged parts > from their environment (Rosen's M&R) if they have the tools. (Just arrived > Brent's similar remark to the list). Sure, but life is organised in a way that is almost recursive. It rebuilds across scales. I'm not being very rigorous here, but I get the sense you're asking about what I feel life to be. > Why do you hold 'computational resources' as fundamental to being alive? Some limited resource, otherwise there's no creative tension. No adaptive niches, for example. > Computation is a human mental peculiarity - an 'evolved resource' by 'being > alive' (whatever that means). How 'bout Bruno's Universal Machine? I like Bruno's Universal Machine. If he's right, I think this machine is at a meta level in relation to what we're discussing. But are you asking perhaps if I think this machine is alive? > There are so many misconceptions about 'life' (mainly HUMAN) floating > around. Religious ones e.g. fix the "beginning" of it at conception of an > egg and a sperm, (my question to that: show me a dead sperm and a dead egg > the combining of which will START a human life - consequently those > ingredients have to be 'alive' = having that darn 'life' in them to go on > with it). Not sure I agree here, but they are seeds for sure. And seed are very interesting things. > So I do not see an answer to my question in your reply. Try again? I can keep trying. Best, Telmo. > John M > > > On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 6:00 AM, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> > wrote: >> >> On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 12:11 AM, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Telmo: >> > >> > would you have (by any chance...) a brief identification of something >> > that >> > comes to your mind when speaking about " l i f e " ? (And please, >> > forget >> > about the"bio" of this Earthbound Terrestrial Biosphere). >> > (To identify " live " is a bit easier I think.) >> >> Hi John, >> >> If I understand your question, I think I do have a general idea of >> what I, informally, associate with life. I always tend to imagine some >> self-contained system that is capable of procuring sources of energy >> in its environment and use that energy to, more or less, maintain it's >> structure. >> >> None of the robots that I've seen so far fit this ideal. Even if they >> can look for an outlet and recharge their batteries, they are not >> capable of deeply fixing themselves. They cannot use that energy to >> rebuild some part of themselves that is damaged. >> >> Simulation environments don't convince me either (and I've built a few >> myself), because there's not real energy at stake. Now, if someone >> created a program that was capable of programming itself in an effort >> to try to maximise it's ability to achieve it goals by making the best >> possible use of the available computational resources, then I might >> eventually see it as being alive. >> >> If you meant something else, please tell me. >> >> Best, >> Telmo. >> >> > John M >> > >> > >> > On Sat, Sep 21, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> >> > wrote: >> >> >> >> Unfortunately this appears to be bs: >> >> >> >> >> >> http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/09/20/136220/alien-life-story-of-dubious-provenance-goes-viral >> >> >> >> (but what do I know!) >> >> >> >> Best, >> >> Telmo. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Chris de Morsella >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > Seems like the Pangea hypothesis might have gotten some evidence... >> >> > wouldn't >> >> > say this is conclusive though, but it is intriguing. >> >> > -Chris >> >> > >> >> > Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space >> >> > Scientists from the University of Sheffield believe they have found >> >> > life >> >> > arriving to Earth from space after sending a balloon to the >> >> > stratosphere.’ >> >> > After it landed, scientists discovered that they had captured a >> >> > diatom >> >> > fragment and some unusual biological entities from the stratosphere, >> >> > all >> >> > of >> >> > which are too large to have come from Earth. >> >> > Other scientists disagree, as noted here: New Alien Life Claim Far >> >> > from >> >> > Convincing, Scientists Say >> >> > The team, led by Professor (Hon. Cardiff and Buckingham Universities) >> >> > Milton >> >> > Wainwright, from the University’s Department of Molecular Biology and >> >> > Biotechnology found small organisms that could have come from space >> >> > after >> >> > sending a specially designed balloon to 27km into the stratosphere >> >> > during >> >> > the recent Perseid meteor shower. >> >> > Professor Wainwright said: “Most people will assume that these >> >> > biological >> >> > particles must have just drifted up to the stratosphere from Earth, >> >> > but >> >> > it >> >> > is generally accepted that a particle of the size found cannot be >> >> > lifted >> >> > from Earth to heights of, for example, 27km. The only known exception >> >> > is >> >> > by >> >> > a violent volcanic eruption, none of which occurred within three >> >> > years >> >> > of >> >> > the sampling trip. >> >> > “In the absence of a mechanism by which large particles like these >> >> > can >> >> > be >> >> > transported to the stratosphere we can only conclude that the >> >> > biological >> >> > entities originated from space. Our conclusion then is that life is >> >> > continually arriving to Earth from space, life is not restricted to >> >> > this >> >> > planet and it almost certainly did not originate here.” >> >> > Professor Wainwright said the results could be revolutionary: “If >> >> > life >> >> > does >> >> > continue to arrive from space then we have to completely change our >> >> > view >> >> > of >> >> > biology and evolution,” he added. “New textbooks will have to be >> >> > written!” >> >> > Professor Wainwright said stringent precautions had been taken >> >> > against >> >> > the >> >> > possibility of contamination during sampling and processing, and said >> >> > the >> >> > group was confident that the biological organisms could only have >> >> > come >> >> > from >> >> > the stratosphere. >> >> > The group’s findings have been published in the Journal of Cosmology >> >> > (open >> >> > access) and updated versions will appear in the same journal, a new >> >> > version >> >> > of which will be published in the near future. Professor Chandra >> >> > Wickramasinghe of the Buckingham, University Center for Astrobiology >> >> > (of >> >> > which Professor Wainwright is an Honorary Fellow) also gave a >> >> > presentation >> >> > of the group’s findings at a meeting of astronomers and >> >> > astrobiologists >> >> > in >> >> > San Diego last month. >> >> > Professor Wainwright added: “Of course it will be argued that there >> >> > must >> >> > be >> >> > an, as yet, unknown mechanism for transferring large particles from >> >> > Earth to >> >> > the high stratosphere, but we stand by our conclusions. The >> >> > absolutely >> >> > crucial experiment will come when we do what is called ‘isotope >> >> > fractionation’. We will take some of the samples which we have >> >> > isolated >> >> > from >> >> > the stratosphere and introduce them into a complex machine – a button >> >> > will >> >> > be pressed. If the ratio of certain isotopes gives one number then >> >> > our >> >> > organisms are from Earth, if it gives another, then they are from >> >> > space. >> >> > The >> >> > tension will obviously be almost impossible to live with!” >> >> > The research was conducted by Professor (Hon. Cardiff and Buckingham >> >> > Universities) Milton Wainwright from the University of Sheffield, >> >> > Chris >> >> > Rose >> >> > and Alex Baker from the University of Sheffield’s Leonardo Centre for >> >> > Tribology and Professor Chandra Wickramasinghe Director of the Centre >> >> > for >> >> > Astrobiology, University of Buckingham. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > http://www.kurzweilai.net/scientists-claim-discovery-of-life-coming-to-earth-from-space?utm_source=KurzweilAI+Daily+Newsletter&utm_campaign=60630eb1c2-UA-946742-1&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_6de721fb33-60630eb1c2-281942553 >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> > Groups >> >> > "Everything List" group. >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >> >> > send >> >> > an >> >> > email to [email protected]. >> >> > To post to this group, send email to >> >> > [email protected]. >> >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> >> Groups >> >> "Everything List" group. >> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> >> an >> >> email to [email protected]. >> >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> > >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >> > Groups >> > "Everything List" group. >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >> > an >> > email to [email protected]. >> > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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