On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 9:16 PM, John Mikes <jami...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Telmo, thanks for your effort of replying.
>  However... (there is always one):
> You haven't seen ALL and the BEST robots, have you?

I admit my ignorance, of course.

> Batteries are some
> primitive gadgets for a starting line of development. What is "deeply"?

It's akin to "fractal" in the sense I'm thinking. Organs, tissues,
cells, mitochondria -- or whatever the equivalent of these things are.

> And
> what is that 'energy' you invoke? (And: YES, they CAN rebuild damaged parts
> from their environment (Rosen's M&R) if they have the tools. (Just arrived
> Brent's similar remark to the list).

Sure, but life is organised in a way that is almost recursive. It
rebuilds across scales. I'm not being very rigorous here, but I get
the sense you're asking about what I feel life to be.

> Why do you hold 'computational resources' as fundamental to being alive?

Some limited resource, otherwise there's no creative tension. No
adaptive niches, for example.

> Computation is a human mental peculiarity - an 'evolved resource' by 'being
> alive' (whatever that means). How 'bout Bruno's Universal Machine?

I like Bruno's Universal Machine. If he's right, I think this machine
is at a meta level in relation to what we're discussing. But are you
asking perhaps if I think this machine is alive?

> There are so many misconceptions about 'life' (mainly HUMAN) floating
> around. Religious ones e.g. fix the "beginning" of it at conception of an
> egg and a sperm, (my question to that: show me a dead sperm and a dead egg
> the combining of which will START a human life - consequently those
> ingredients have to be 'alive' = having that darn 'life' in them to go on
> with it).

Not sure I agree here, but they are seeds for sure. And seed are very
interesting things.

> So I do not see an answer to my question in your reply. Try again?

I can keep trying.

Best,
Telmo.

> John M
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 6:00 AM, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
> wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 12:11 AM, John Mikes <jami...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > Telmo:
>> >
>> > would you have (by any chance...) a brief identification of something
>> > that
>> > comes to your mind when speaking about  " l i f e "  ? (And please,
>> > forget
>> > about the"bio" of this Earthbound Terrestrial Biosphere).
>> > (To identify " live " is a bit easier I think.)
>>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> If I understand your question, I think I do have a general idea of
>> what I, informally, associate with life. I always tend to imagine some
>> self-contained system that is capable of procuring sources of energy
>> in its environment and use that energy to, more or less, maintain it's
>> structure.
>>
>> None of the robots that I've seen so far fit this ideal. Even if they
>> can look for an outlet and recharge their batteries, they are not
>> capable of deeply fixing themselves. They cannot use that energy to
>> rebuild some part of themselves that is damaged.
>>
>> Simulation environments don't convince me either (and I've built a few
>> myself), because there's not real energy at stake. Now, if someone
>> created a program that was capable of programming itself in an effort
>> to try to maximise it's ability to achieve it goals by making the best
>> possible use of the available computational resources, then I might
>> eventually see it as being alive.
>>
>> If you meant something else, please tell me.
>>
>> Best,
>> Telmo.
>>
>> > John M
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sat, Sep 21, 2013 at 8:46 AM, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately this appears to be bs:
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> http://science.slashdot.org/story/13/09/20/136220/alien-life-story-of-dubious-provenance-goes-viral
>> >>
>> >> (but what do I know!)
>> >>
>> >> Best,
>> >> Telmo.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Fri, Sep 20, 2013 at 11:53 PM, Chris de Morsella
>> >> <cdemorse...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >> > Seems like the Pangea hypothesis might have gotten some evidence...
>> >> > wouldn't
>> >> > say this is conclusive though, but it is intriguing.
>> >> > -Chris
>> >> >
>> >> > Scientists claim discovery of life coming to Earth from space
>> >> > Scientists from the University of Sheffield believe they have found
>> >> > life
>> >> > arriving to Earth from space after sending a balloon to the
>> >> > stratosphere.’
>> >> > After it landed, scientists discovered that they had captured a
>> >> > diatom
>> >> > fragment and some unusual biological entities from the stratosphere,
>> >> > all
>> >> > of
>> >> > which are too large to have come from Earth.
>> >> > Other scientists disagree, as noted here: New Alien Life Claim Far
>> >> > from
>> >> > Convincing, Scientists Say
>> >> > The team, led by Professor (Hon. Cardiff and Buckingham Universities)
>> >> > Milton
>> >> > Wainwright, from the University’s Department of Molecular Biology and
>> >> > Biotechnology found small organisms that could have come from space
>> >> > after
>> >> > sending a specially designed balloon to 27km into the stratosphere
>> >> > during
>> >> > the recent Perseid meteor shower.
>> >> > Professor Wainwright said: “Most people will assume that these
>> >> > biological
>> >> > particles must have just drifted up to the stratosphere from Earth,
>> >> > but
>> >> > it
>> >> > is generally accepted that a particle of the size found cannot be
>> >> > lifted
>> >> > from Earth to heights of, for example, 27km. The only known exception
>> >> > is
>> >> > by
>> >> > a violent volcanic eruption, none of which occurred within three
>> >> > years
>> >> > of
>> >> > the sampling trip.
>> >> > “In the absence of a mechanism by which large particles like these
>> >> > can
>> >> > be
>> >> > transported to the stratosphere we can only conclude that the
>> >> > biological
>> >> > entities originated from space. Our conclusion then is that life is
>> >> > continually arriving to Earth from space, life is not restricted to
>> >> > this
>> >> > planet and it almost certainly did not originate here.”
>> >> > Professor Wainwright said the results could be revolutionary: “If
>> >> > life
>> >> > does
>> >> > continue to arrive from space then we have to completely change our
>> >> > view
>> >> > of
>> >> > biology and evolution,” he added. “New textbooks will have to be
>> >> > written!”
>> >> > Professor Wainwright said stringent precautions had been taken
>> >> > against
>> >> > the
>> >> > possibility of contamination during sampling and processing, and said
>> >> > the
>> >> > group was confident that the biological organisms could only have
>> >> > come
>> >> > from
>> >> > the stratosphere.
>> >> > The group’s findings have been published in the Journal of Cosmology
>> >> > (open
>> >> > access) and updated versions will appear in the same journal, a new
>> >> > version
>> >> > of which will be published in the near future. Professor Chandra
>> >> > Wickramasinghe of the Buckingham, University Center for Astrobiology
>> >> > (of
>> >> > which Professor Wainwright is an Honorary Fellow) also gave a
>> >> > presentation
>> >> > of the group’s findings at a meeting of astronomers and
>> >> > astrobiologists
>> >> > in
>> >> > San Diego last month.
>> >> > Professor Wainwright added: “Of course it will be argued that there
>> >> > must
>> >> > be
>> >> > an, as yet, unknown mechanism for transferring large particles from
>> >> > Earth to
>> >> > the high stratosphere, but we stand by our conclusions. The
>> >> > absolutely
>> >> > crucial experiment will come when we do what is called ‘isotope
>> >> > fractionation’. We will take some of the samples which we have
>> >> > isolated
>> >> > from
>> >> > the stratosphere and introduce them into a complex machine – a button
>> >> > will
>> >> > be pressed. If the ratio of certain isotopes gives one number then
>> >> > our
>> >> > organisms are from Earth, if it gives another, then they are from
>> >> > space.
>> >> > The
>> >> > tension will obviously be almost impossible to live with!”
>> >> > The research was conducted by Professor (Hon. Cardiff and Buckingham
>> >> > Universities) Milton Wainwright from the University of Sheffield,
>> >> > Chris
>> >> > Rose
>> >> > and Alex Baker from the University of Sheffield’s Leonardo Centre for
>> >> > Tribology and Professor Chandra Wickramasinghe Director of the Centre
>> >> > for
>> >> > Astrobiology, University of Buckingham.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.kurzweilai.net/scientists-claim-discovery-of-life-coming-to-earth-from-space?utm_source=KurzweilAI+Daily+Newsletter&utm_campaign=60630eb1c2-UA-946742-1&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_6de721fb33-60630eb1c2-281942553
>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> >> > Groups
>> >> > "Everything List" group.
>> >> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
>> >> > send
>> >> > an
>> >> > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> >> > To post to this group, send email to
>> >> > everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>> >> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
>> >> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> >> Groups
>> >> "Everything List" group.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> >> an
>> >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>> >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
>> >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> > Groups
>> > "Everything List" group.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>> > an
>> > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>> > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
>> > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "Everything List" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.

Reply via email to