On Sun, Oct 27, 2013 at 6:47 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

> On 27 Oct 2013, at 13:36, Craig Weinberg wrote:
>  there is great value in a way to access experience which pretends that it
>> is not pretending. This is quanta and arithmetic truth.
> I would say that is different. It is just simple sharable belief, like x +
> 0 = x, etc. We just put some principles on the table so that we can use it
> without "philosophy" to proceed.
> Of course the intuition we have that x + 0 = x (for all number x) is
> related to our sense and qualia, but that does not make them depending on
> qualia, we don't have to rely on qualia and complex psychology to proceed
> from x + 0 = x.
> Be careful, as arithmetic truth is far (an euphemism) bigger that the
> computable, and if comp is true, it manages the quanta and the qualia
> (admitting some standard definition in philosophy/theology).
>  It has a job to do, so that the rest of the concrete universe of
>> experience can continue dreaming in peace. In a sense, that makes is
>> 'conscious' as far as being the voice of vigilance and the motor of
>> realism. It is locally closer to "God" as far as allowing us access to
>> control over our bodies and the outside world (except where that control
>> conflicts with the deeper streams of large dreams with a lot of momentum,
>> aka destiny, luck).
>> I put the scare quotes around 'conscious' though, because the character
>> of that consciousness would be so perpendicular to experience that any
>> person or animal would have that it is closer to anti-consciousness than
>> something we would recognize. It would be like taking our experience of
>> 'today' and our experience of 'forever' and switching them, so that we
>> would come to the world of experienced moments from the loong way around.
> This *looks* like a description of the salvia experience, but term like
> "anti-consciousness" is a bit pejorative for that, although it has
> anti-life aspect, pointing on the fact that theology is not much "pro-life".

I beg to differ. In my studies it is mute on this question, given such a
particularized notion of "life", which itself even changes as we accumulate
histories etc. So I doubt this notion or that it can be clearly represented
as unmoving ideal content of universal mind or something more primary. It's
too complex for that and takes multiplicity too literally to equal
separation/differentiation absolutely.

> Once you have the cognitive ability to imagine you might be a machine, you
> have the cognitive abilities to understand that somehow, you don't really
> need the machine. Comp makes transhumanism possible, but i the deep, it
> suggests it might also be vain, like just prolonging the Samsara, and
> procrastinating the Nirvana.
That would make children's joy "vain". I don't buy that, nor the notion
that Samsara is separate from Nirvana as in some Buddhism, because such
statement is too inconsistent with negative theology principle.

Chiefly, because there are multitudes of ways to negate
universality/self-reference intelligence by entering trance, sexual
practice, music, play, collaboration and playing with others, voyages,
adventures, building and fixing things, improvisation,
re-discovery/revelation of appearances that mirror the ideals more
precisely, that all negate the isolated self-reference dream; or at least
reduce it to a less exaggerated and distorted size, if one is willing to
lose enough control/security and do high enough dosage.

The studies of these activities should be brought back into serious
repertoire of science, as without their rigorous practice and our
betterment in them, intelligence will tend towards self-destruction. The
politics or AI that we write, will be depressed, the science we search will
lead us further astray etc.

I know this kind of statement of "trapped in Samsara", "outside divine mind
immortal nirvana" is found in a lot of scripture and in the self-reference
constraints of universal machine, but to me it is priests taking too
seriously their interpretation, or their own smoke/emanations in Plotinus
terms. Not funny enough to be true, like some grumpy catholic hymn of "you
don't deserve divine stuff"... ;-)

Like they think they can tell the future or equate all joy with vanity of
self-referential motion. Too quick for me; bad + sad for children and so
called "adults". Smoke is not fire. PGC

>  It is the Mona Lisa from behind the paint, bleeding through in reverse
>> from within the spectacularly-invisible depths of the canvas and frame. I
>> might be able to work with that more if I had help on learning the math. I
>> still do not think that the view from inside the canvas will ever
>> experience the Mona Lisa, but who knows, maybe she tastes better on the
>> inside than she looks on the outside?
> :)
> Bruno
> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~**marchal/ <http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/>
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