On 30 Oct 2013, at 16:26, Platonist Guitar Cowboy wrote:

>This *looks* like a description of the salvia experience, but term like "anti-consciousness" is a bit >pejorative for that, although it has anti-life aspect, pointing on the fact that theology is not much "pro-life".

That would make children's joy "vain".


When I say that theology is not much "pro-life" I just point on the fact that theology is often concerned by "after-life".

I don't buy that, nor the notion that Samsara is separate from Nirvana as in some Buddhism, because such statement is too inconsistent with negative theology principle.

With comp, there is a sense to say that the Samsara is part of the Nirvana, like (not exactly like, of course, but enough like for my point), provable (by the correct machine) is part of truth, or G is part of G*, or Z part of Z*, etc.

Chiefly, because there are multitudes of ways to negate universality/ self-reference intelligence by entering trance, sexual practice, music, play, collaboration and playing with others, voyages, adventures, building and fixing things, improvisation, re-discovery/ revelation of appearances that mirror the ideals more precisely, that all negate the isolated self-reference dream; or at least reduce it to a less exaggerated and distorted size, if one is willing to lose enough control/security and do high enough dosage.

I am not sure why trance, sex, drugs need to negate universality/self- reference intelligence, (at any dosage which is not self-injuring which depends of the product or activity). It can lead beyond intelligence, but it does not negate it, for the same reason the Samsara is part of the Nirvana, and science is the best tool for theology, even if *our* science cannot complete *our* theology.

The studies of these activities should be brought back into serious repertoire of science, as without their rigorous practice and our betterment in them, intelligence will tend towards self-destruction. The politics or AI that we write, will be depressed, the science we search will lead us further astray etc.

I know this kind of statement of "trapped in Samsara", "outside divine mind immortal nirvana" is found in a lot of scripture and in the self-reference constraints of universal machine, but to me it is priests taking too seriously their interpretation, or their own smoke/emanations in Plotinus terms. Not funny enough to be true, like some grumpy catholic hymn of "you don't deserve divine stuff"... ;-)

You might be right. Plotinus, or Proclus talk about "procession/ emanation" and "conversion", but "the fall" is a pop terming that has its charm, and is justified, for a strict Platonist, by their relation between matter and evil.

I agree we might not insist on that, or taken it too much literally. It is the place where theology negates in some way biology. Like accepting to die negates the effort to prolongate life. We are not a long way from the Euthanasia topic.

Like they think they can tell the future or equate all joy with vanity of self-referential motion.

Everything is vain, but joy.
Vanity kills joy.

Too quick for me; bad + sad for children and so called "adults". Smoke is not fire.

Not sure I follow you, but arguments in "rational theology" should not be guided by what we want, unless we discuss politics, and decisions, where what we want is the principal concern.



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