On 25 Oct 2013, at 19:23, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Friday, October 25, 2013 10:11:04 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 24 Oct 2013, at 18:53, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Thursday, October 24, 2013 10:16:55 AM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:

On 23 Oct 2013, at 20:07, Craig Weinberg wrote:



On Wednesday, October 23, 2013 12:34:05 PM UTC-4, Bruno Marchal wrote:
<snip>
"My problem is that you need
to do the math to evaluate how much seriously you can take this remark."

Under comp, why couldn't I just imagine tasting the flavor of the math instead?

With comp, when you test the flavor of coffee, you do, actually, test the flavor of some math.

That's what I am saying. It would have to be the case under comp. My point though is that it is absurd. Tasting something gives us no mathematical understanding.

It does. It might teach you what math looks like from inside.

If that were true, then the same math could not be expressed as both a sound or an image, but we know that it can.

It depends which math. Some theories are categorical (defined completely the objects), and some are not and can corresponds to many realities.


For math to have an interior that looked like something, there would have to be some mathematical expression which only has an interior which is visible rather than auditory, olfactory, etc.

But I have shown that such math not only exist, but develop through machine self-reference.



We already know from synesthesia and from playing with peripherals for electronic computers that this is not true.

Similar experiences have been done on salamander, and sinesthesia illustrates my point, so that remark is a bit weird.


It would be like building a hard drive that cannot accept bytes that came from a camera, only a microphone.

That can easily be done.



Or you beg the question. keep in mind I don't argue for comp, but you are arguing against comp, so it is up to you to give some argument that testing a flavor cannot be a mathematical phenomenon.

The argument is that mathematical information is neither necessary nor sufficient to generate an experience of flavor, color, etc.

That's not an argument. It is an assertion without argument.



so there is no expectation that math has anything to do with it. Comp has no more credence in explaining flavor than would geography.


The understanding that flavor does provide is the opposite of math. It is immediate

>Thanks to many cells doing a work learned through a very long time, may be. It seems immediate, but the

>evidences (brains) is that it is not.

The evidence of the brain does not show that flavor exists, or worse, that flavor could possibly exist.

The evidence exist, as there are evidence for self-reflexive loop in the brain, and they can implement the self-reference which have been shown to lead to qualia (defined semi-axiomatically).



If the work that the cells do creates flavor,

The work does not have to create the qualia, only to make them relatively manifestable. The work of the computer will reflected those non necessarily representable feature, like the machine will distinguish its first and third person description. Only God knows that they are equivalent ways of seeing a part of the arithmetical truth, the machine will *feel* them as very different. Unavoidably so.


then the flavor would exist for them and not for us.

? That is typical for flavors. I can "see" your flavor sensation. I can see you biochemical path way, but the fact that we have comparable complexity + the self-reference limitations explain why we can't associate qualia to anything third person describable (not just machines, other people's body too).


We cannot make the attachment of physics a condition for qualia but not for comp.

?


You assume disembodied, unexperienced math, but I do not. You assume qualia contingent on math, but I assume the opposite.

I show, with semi-axiomatic definition, the necessity of qualia, for all machine whose complexity threshold is above universality.






(although develops briefly through time as well), it is irreducible to anything other than flavor, and it does not consist of 'stepped reckoning' of any kind, it is an aesthetic gestalt.

OK. No problem with this in the comp theory. That's the point of the limitation theorems. Some truth can be accessible by machine, without them having to do any hard work.

But there is no reason to suspect that truth can include sensations.

Of course there are reason to suspect truth can include sensations. The true existence of sensations, for example. But there are no evidence that truth can include the existence of a primitive physical reality which would need to be assumed.







But you test it from the inside of math, and so it looks different from the math we learn at school. That it looks different is explainable by any Löbian machine,

Taste doesn't look like anything though, and it cannot ever look like anything. If it did, then it would be vision. If it could be vision, then it would be profoundly redundant to have both senses of the same data...(assuming that Santa Claus has brought the possibility of senses to begin with.)

and can be understood intuitively with some training in the comp thought experiment. The difference are accounted by the intensional nuance of Gödel's provability.

I don't think it is. It seems clear to me that any mechanical accounting of sense implicitly takes sense for granted from the start. There is no functional difference between sight, smell, feeling, hearing, etc. There is no intensional nuance that ties to the possibility of any one of them - only a grey box where something like virtual proof could theoretically live.

I can relate to your feelings, but I don't see why a machine could not too. You just assert it, but you don't really provide an argument.

You do point on a difficulty, but a difficulty is not an impossibility, especially that computer science already explains why machines will find that difficult too, for their own accessible truth spectrum.

The argument against comp is not one of impossibility, but of empirical failure.

That is not an argument. You would have predicted that planes cannot fly, or that living being cannot fly, or that man cannot go to the moon. Everything practical begins by empirical failure.


Sure, numbers could do this or that, but our experience does not support that it has ever happened.

Because you don't listen to machines, but you have warn us that even if they have the right behavior, you will take them as zombies or puppets. So there is no hope to chnange your mind on this.


In the mean time, the view that I suggest I think does make more sense and supports our experience fully.

I don't see that at all, except that you start from what we want explain. Organic molecules can associate to "create" thought, but not other molecules. That makes everything more mysterious for me.

Bruno




Craig

Bruno



Craig


Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/




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