On 05 Dec 2013, at 23:47, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 03 Dec 2013, at 01:42, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]
>
wrote:
Good question, and one which is repeatedly asked by many within and
outside the faith. God, in His complete knowledge, knows each and
every soul
and who is worthy of eternal bliss and who not. However,
according to a
decree, humans have been granted respite and an opportunity to
believe and
do good. Something like an exam for a degree or a quality-check
and sorting
of manufactured goods. This necessarily requires a belief in an
event no
longer in conscious human memory, but which nevertheless is the
cause of
this life, and the belief in Accountability for beliefs and
actions in a
life after this life. Either one reasons that outcomes are
already known to
God hence there really is no need to 'do' anything, or one
intensifies one's
effort to search for 'truth' and do as much good as may be
possible, so as
to take full advantage of this temporal life, using it for
eternal bliss.
But the problem is that either I reason that the outcome is already
known or not, it is indeed already known, according to what you said
before. So we're just watching as it unfolds.
My understanding may be wrong, for all we know this may be the
only life,
nothing before or after, but what if there is?
If there is, and my life is predetermined and I'm still going to be
punished or rewarded, then it's just a matter of waiting and
seeing if
I win the cosmic lottery no? You still didn't address the problem
that
you cannot have predetermination and free-will at the same time.
But this is something that we have already discussed a lot. Some
(like me)
agreed on compatibilist theory of free will. In fact we don't see how
indeterminacy could help in the free will ability. Why should the
fact that
some super-machine, or god, can predict my behavior prevent it of
being
free? Free will is *self*-indetermination, not absolute
indetermination.
When we feel free to do something we want to do, we often say that
we are
determined to do it ...
I think I agree. My view is that "free will" is a 1p experience that
makes no sense as a 3p concept.
OK. (This is slightly nuanceable, but is not important)
But here I was arguing against a religious claim. Proposing that there
is a God that is testing us, and that the meaning of or lives is to
pass this test is a strong claim,
Indeed.
one that can deeply affect people's
behaviours.
That might be the reason of its existence.
From an omniscient God's perspective, everything already
happened.
Like with comp, all the arithmetical truth are already "decided", from
outside, but it looks different from inside.
Trying to recover possible wishes of an entity at this God's
level and introducing them at the level of our experience seems
nonsensical.
Yes. like it is nonsensical to justify some behavior by saying "I was
just obeying to the SWE".
On the other hand, this type of claim sounds suspiciously
convenient for some very human purposes...
Alas, yes.
bruno
Telmo.
Bruno
And how difficult is it to believe in this age of technology that
all is
being recorded and will be replayed? Reasons enough to bother...
What do you mean by replayed? If the same moment is perfectly
replayed, then it's indistinguishable from all other instances of
the
same moment. There's still just one moment. Otherwise they are
different moments, and it's not a replay.
Telmo.
Samiya
Sent from my iPhone
On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:51 PM, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]
>
wrote:
Below, I'm paraphrasing from memory a couple of passages:
On the subject of the persecution of the 'Bani Israel' Children
of
Israel by Pharoah, such that the male children were being
killed and females
kept alive, It reads that it was a great trial from God.
At another place, it reads that know that whatever happens to
you, good
or bad, it is all inscribed in a decree before we bring it
into existence.
This is so that you do not despair of whatever passes you by,
nor exult over
...
There is a lot going on all over the world that one would like
to wish
away, but it helps to understand that all things / events /
circumstances
are trials, temporary and transient. In this life, nothing is a
reward or
punishment, rather everything is a trial, and an opportunity to
do good
deeds through helping those in need. Reward and Punishment are
concepts
associated with the Hereafter, and are of a permanent nature.
No, he didn't say "Oops!", God exhorts us to reflect and ponder!
Hi Samiya,
If whatever happens is inscribed in a decree before we bring it
into
existence, so is the outcome of the trials. So why bother?
Telmo.
Samiya
Sent from my iPhone
On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:09 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 02 Dec 2013, at 13:39, Samiya Illias wrote:
I agree that God is consistent. In my understanding, God is
perfect
in every possible meaning of the word.
Is God perfect for the children in Syria? (Easy question on
an hard
subject)
Here, you might hope that God will succeed in consolating them
and
that everything is OK. But that state of mind might make us
accept more
easily the tragedies, and that fatalism ... might be fatal for
the
incarnation of the good.
The question, put in a another way, who are you to judge God's
perfection?
You might, like Gödel, assume that God has all positive
attributes and
as such is perfect, and one day we will understand the
tragedies, but I am
not sure such a God makes sense for the universal machines.
If it makes sense, then I am willing to bet it is a truth
belonging to
G*, and not G. That would mean that God was perfect ... until
you said so.
The theological truth must remain silent, or be justified from
some
shared assumptions.
If you say God is perfect to those who lost people they care
about, it
might be impolite, and you will again fuel atheism.
Hell is paved with the best intentions.
God might also not be perfect, and you might have the right to
be
angry against She/Him/It.
I was objecting to the assertion below that 'Most theistic
philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue
agree that God
did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have
the power to
alter them (or any other "necessary" truths,
God created logic and the integers, and arithmetic. Then he said
"Oops!".
Analysis, Topology, Algebra, Physics, History, Geography,
archeology
and Theology are tools for the integers to understand
themselves.
Truth already warns the numbers: the path is infinite and
there are
surprises.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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