On 05 Dec 2013, at 23:47, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:

On 03 Dec 2013, at 01:42, Telmo Menezes wrote:

On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com >
wrote:

Good question, and one which is repeatedly asked by many within and
outside the faith. God, in His complete knowledge, knows each and every soul and who is worthy of eternal bliss and who not. However, according to a decree, humans have been granted respite and an opportunity to believe and do good. Something like an exam for a degree or a quality-check and sorting of manufactured goods. This necessarily requires a belief in an event no longer in conscious human memory, but which nevertheless is the cause of this life, and the belief in Accountability for beliefs and actions in a life after this life. Either one reasons that outcomes are already known to God hence there really is no need to 'do' anything, or one intensifies one's effort to search for 'truth' and do as much good as may be possible, so as to take full advantage of this temporal life, using it for eternal bliss.


But the problem is that either I reason that the outcome is already
known or not, it is indeed already known, according to what you said
before. So we're just watching as it unfolds.

My understanding may be wrong, for all we know this may be the only life,
nothing before or after, but what if there is?


If there is, and my life is predetermined and I'm still going to be
punished or rewarded, then it's just a matter of waiting and seeing if I win the cosmic lottery no? You still didn't address the problem that
you cannot have predetermination and free-will at the same time.


But this is something that we have already discussed a lot. Some (like me)
agreed on compatibilist theory of free will. In fact we don't see how
indeterminacy could help in the free will ability. Why should the fact that some super-machine, or god, can predict my behavior prevent it of being free? Free will is *self*-indetermination, not absolute indetermination. When we feel free to do something we want to do, we often say that we are
determined to do it ...

I think I agree. My view is that "free will" is a 1p experience that
makes no sense as a 3p concept.

OK. (This is slightly nuanceable, but is not important)



But here I was arguing against a religious claim. Proposing that there
is a God that is testing us, and that the meaning of or lives is to
pass this test is a strong claim,

Indeed.




one that can deeply affect people's
behaviours.

That might be the reason of its existence.




From an omniscient God's perspective, everything already
happened.

Like with comp, all the arithmetical truth are already "decided", from outside, but it looks different from inside.



Trying to recover possible wishes of an entity at this God's
level and introducing them at the level of our experience seems
nonsensical.

Yes. like it is nonsensical to justify some behavior by saying "I was just obeying to the SWE".



On the other hand, this type of claim sounds suspiciously
convenient for some very human purposes...

Alas, yes.

bruno




Telmo.

Bruno





And how difficult is it to believe in this age of technology that all is
being recorded and will be replayed? Reasons enough to bother...


What do you mean by replayed? If the same moment is perfectly
replayed, then it's indistinguishable from all other instances of the
same moment. There's still just one moment. Otherwise they are
different moments, and it's not a replay.

Telmo.

Samiya

Sent from my iPhone

On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:51 PM, Telmo Menezes <te...@telmomenezes.com>
wrote:

On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Samiya Illias <samiyaill...@gmail.com >
wrote:

Below, I'm paraphrasing from memory a couple of passages:
On the subject of the persecution of the 'Bani Israel' Children of Israel by Pharoah, such that the male children were being killed and females
kept alive, It reads that it was a great trial from God.
At another place, it reads that know that whatever happens to you, good or bad, it is all inscribed in a decree before we bring it into existence. This is so that you do not despair of whatever passes you by, nor exult over
...
There is a lot going on all over the world that one would like to wish away, but it helps to understand that all things / events / circumstances are trials, temporary and transient. In this life, nothing is a reward or punishment, rather everything is a trial, and an opportunity to do good deeds through helping those in need. Reward and Punishment are concepts
associated with the Hereafter, and are of a permanent nature.
No, he didn't say "Oops!", God exhorts us to reflect and ponder!


Hi Samiya,

If whatever happens is inscribed in a decree before we bring it into
existence, so is the outcome of the trials. So why bother?

Telmo.

Samiya

Sent from my iPhone

On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:09 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:


On 02 Dec 2013, at 13:39, Samiya Illias wrote:

I agree that God is consistent. In my understanding, God is perfect
in every possible meaning of the word.


Is God perfect for the children in Syria? (Easy question on an hard
subject)

Here, you might hope that God will succeed in consolating them and that everything is OK. But that state of mind might make us accept more easily the tragedies, and that fatalism ... might be fatal for the
incarnation of the good.

The question, put in a another way, who are you to judge God's
perfection?

You might, like Gödel, assume that God has all positive attributes and as such is perfect, and one day we will understand the tragedies, but I am
not sure such a God makes sense for the universal machines.

If it makes sense, then I am willing to bet it is a truth belonging to G*, and not G. That would mean that God was perfect ... until you said so.

The theological truth must remain silent, or be justified from some
shared assumptions.

If you say God is perfect to those who lost people they care about, it
might be impolite, and you will again fuel atheism.

Hell is paved with the best intentions.

God might also not be perfect, and you might have the right to be
angry against She/Him/It.





I was objecting to the assertion below that 'Most theistic
philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and does not have the power to
alter them (or any other "necessary" truths,


God created logic and the integers, and arithmetic. Then he said
"Oops!".

Analysis, Topology, Algebra, Physics, History, Geography, archeology and Theology are tools for the integers to understand themselves.

Truth already warns the numbers: the path is infinite and there are
surprises.

Bruno


http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/



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