On 03 Dec 2013, at 01:42, Telmo Menezes wrote:
On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 7:59 PM, Samiya Illias
<[email protected]> wrote:
Good question, and one which is repeatedly asked by many within and
outside the faith. God, in His complete knowledge, knows each and
every soul and who is worthy of eternal bliss and who not. However,
according to a decree, humans have been granted respite and an
opportunity to believe and do good. Something like an exam for a
degree or a quality-check and sorting of manufactured goods. This
necessarily requires a belief in an event no longer in conscious
human memory, but which nevertheless is the cause of this life, and
the belief in Accountability for beliefs and actions in a life
after this life. Either one reasons that outcomes are already known
to God hence there really is no need to 'do' anything, or one
intensifies one's effort to search for 'truth' and do as much good
as may be possible, so as to take full advantage of this temporal
life, using it for eternal bliss.
But the problem is that either I reason that the outcome is already
known or not, it is indeed already known, according to what you said
before. So we're just watching as it unfolds.
My understanding may be wrong, for all we know this may be the only
life, nothing before or after, but what if there is?
If there is, and my life is predetermined and I'm still going to be
punished or rewarded, then it's just a matter of waiting and seeing if
I win the cosmic lottery no? You still didn't address the problem that
you cannot have predetermination and free-will at the same time.
But this is something that we have already discussed a lot. Some (like
me) agreed on compatibilist theory of free will. In fact we don't see
how indeterminacy could help in the free will ability. Why should the
fact that some super-machine, or god, can predict my behavior prevent
it of being free? Free will is *self*-indetermination, not absolute
indetermination. When we feel free to do something we want to do, we
often say that we are determined to do it ...
Bruno
And how difficult is it to believe in this age of technology that
all is being recorded and will be replayed? Reasons enough to
bother...
What do you mean by replayed? If the same moment is perfectly
replayed, then it's indistinguishable from all other instances of the
same moment. There's still just one moment. Otherwise they are
different moments, and it's not a replay.
Telmo.
Samiya
Sent from my iPhone
On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:51 PM, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]>
wrote:
On Mon, Dec 2, 2013 at 6:46 PM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]
> wrote:
Below, I'm paraphrasing from memory a couple of passages:
On the subject of the persecution of the 'Bani Israel' Children
of Israel by Pharoah, such that the male children were being
killed and females kept alive, It reads that it was a great trial
from God.
At another place, it reads that know that whatever happens to
you, good or bad, it is all inscribed in a decree before we
bring it into existence. This is so that you do not despair of
whatever passes you by, nor exult over ...
There is a lot going on all over the world that one would like to
wish away, but it helps to understand that all things / events /
circumstances are trials, temporary and transient. In this life,
nothing is a reward or punishment, rather everything is a trial,
and an opportunity to do good deeds through helping those in
need. Reward and Punishment are concepts associated with the
Hereafter, and are of a permanent nature.
No, he didn't say "Oops!", God exhorts us to reflect and ponder!
Hi Samiya,
If whatever happens is inscribed in a decree before we bring it into
existence, so is the outcome of the trials. So why bother?
Telmo.
Samiya
Sent from my iPhone
On 02-Dec-2013, at 10:09 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
wrote:
On 02 Dec 2013, at 13:39, Samiya Illias wrote:
I agree that God is consistent. In my understanding, God is
perfect in every possible meaning of the word.
Is God perfect for the children in Syria? (Easy question on an
hard subject)
Here, you might hope that God will succeed in consolating them
and that everything is OK. But that state of mind might make us
accept more easily the tragedies, and that fatalism ... might be
fatal for the incarnation of the good.
The question, put in a another way, who are you to judge God's
perfection?
You might, like Gödel, assume that God has all positive
attributes and as such is perfect, and one day we will
understand the tragedies, but I am not sure such a God makes
sense for the universal machines.
If it makes sense, then I am willing to bet it is a truth
belonging to G*, and not G. That would mean that God was
perfect ... until you said so.
The theological truth must remain silent, or be justified from
some shared assumptions.
If you say God is perfect to those who lost people they care
about, it might be impolite, and you will again fuel atheism.
Hell is paved with the best intentions.
God might also not be perfect, and you might have the right to
be angry against She/Him/It.
I was objecting to the assertion below that 'Most theistic
philosophers and theologians who have considered the issue
agree that God did not create the laws of math and logic, and
does not have the power to alter them (or any other "necessary"
truths,
God created logic and the integers, and arithmetic. Then he said
"Oops!".
Analysis, Topology, Algebra, Physics, History, Geography,
archeology and Theology are tools for the integers to understand
themselves.
Truth already warns the numbers: the path is infinite and there
are surprises.
Bruno
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Google Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from
it, send an email to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-
list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the
Google Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected]
.
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to everything-
[email protected].
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
Groups "Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it,
send an email to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email
to [email protected].
To post to this group, send email to [email protected].
Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out.
