Re: Another stab at the universal present moment - a gedanken..

[meekerdb]

On 12/29/2013 5:19 PM, Edgar L. Owen wrote:
All,
All,

Once we accept the obvious observable fact that we share a common present moment when we 
are together we need to take the next step and establish that we also share a common 
present moment when we are separated in space. Only if we can prove that can we 
establish that the present moment is universal, that the same present moment is shared 
across the universe.

Obviously we cannot establish this by direct observation due to the finite speed of 
light, but it is easy to prove with the following argument.

Step 1: Two observers stand together with the same clock times on their watches and 
shake hands. By direct observation they confirm they share both the same actual present 
moment time, and the same clock time.

And that the clock's run at the same rate.  Right?


Step 2: One observer makes a 1 year space flight at relativistic acceleration while the 
other remains where he was. During this period both observers continuously exist in 
their own actual present moment, and their clocks appear to progress at a constant 
proper time rate.

Step 3. The traveling observer returns and shakes hands with the observer who remained 
behind. Again, by direct observation they both confirm they both share the exact same 
actual present moment time but their clock times are no longer the same. Their actual 
present moment times are the same, but their clock times are not simultaneous.

This is confusing "being at the same event" with "measuring the same duration".  Of course 
they are at the same event.  But they are different durations away from their previous 
shared event.


At this point it is obvious that actual present time and clock time are two different 
things. Both observers confirm this by direct observation.

Now the question is can we confirm that both observers also shared the exact same actual 
present times during their separation in space? Yes we can and the argument is simple. 
Both observer's actual present times and their clock times were continuous during the 1 
year they were separated. There was always both some actual present moment and some 
actual clock time. During the separation period each observer was always continuously 
extant in time as both actual present time and clock time progressed.

Now since both observers started at the same present moment of time and ended at the 
same actual present moment of time and since each observer always had some present 
moment during the separation it is obvious that at every point in each observer's actual 
present time there must have been a corresponding point in the other observer's actual 
present time. In every point in each observer's actual present moment the other observer 
must have been doing something at the same actual present moment time. This is because 
there was never a gap in either observer's present moment, a moment when they didn't 
exist in their present moment, thus there must be a one to one mapping of actual present 
moments even when the observers were separated.

But there is no *unique* one-to-one mapping.  In Newtonian physics there was.  But in 
special relativity the one-to-one mapping depends on the choice of inertial frame and the 
speed of light is the same in every frame so there is no preferred inertial frame.


Think of two points on a sheet of graph paper, one vertically above the other. Join the 
points by one straight vertical line and one curved line which will be of greater 
length. The vertical grids will correspond to the passage of present moment P-time while 
the different lengths along the lines will correspond to their clock times. Note that 
while clock time passes at different rates on the two lines, P-time, the vertical 
distance between the grids, passes at the same rate across both lines. And there is 
ALWAYS a corresponding point on both lines that represents the same present moment time 
where the lines are intersected by the same grid line.

There is no unique point that is "at the same time".  It is arbitrary up to a choice of 
reference frame.  I have suggested that the CMB can provide a preferred reference frame so 
long as the universe is isotropic and homogeneous.  But this introduces other problems. 
(1) We're not on a preferred frame (2) clocks run at different rates because of the 
expansion of the universe.


Thus there is always a common present moment no matter how observers may be separated in 
space.

This is also confirmed by the fact that the observers left from the same actual present 
moment and returned to the same actual present moment. The observer who traveled has a 
clock that reads less than a year passed while the observer who stayed behind has a 
clock that tells him a year has passed BUT their actual present moments are simultaneous 
(because they can observably confirm that by shaking hands both before and after the 
trip) and thus must also always have been simultaneous during the period of separation.

This conclusively proves that observers inhabit the exact same actual present moment 
both when they are at the same place and when they are separated in space. Thus we must 
conclude there is a common universal present moment that all observers inhabit, and thus 
that that common universal present moment is the only moment anything exists in, that it 
is the only locus of reality.

This conclusively proves that there are two kinds of time, clock time which is measured 
by clocks, and the actual universal present time moment (P-time) that is common to all 
observers, and that clock time and P-time are only synchronous in non-relativistic 
situations. Clock times vary with relativistic circumstance but P-time doesn't. It 
remains simultaneous for all observers in all circumstances. Everything continually 
inhabits the same actual P-time present moment.

But what that moment is depends on an arbitrary choice of reference frame and so can have 
no physical significance.

Brent


I don't think the argument can be expressed much clearer and more obviously than that. 
If it still isn't clear then so be it.

Edgar



On Sunday, December 29, 2013 9:39:30 AM UTC-5, Edgar L. Owen wrote:

    Pierz,

    A lot of meat in your post. Thanks! I'll answer most of your questions....

    Yes, observers observe they are in the same present moment by the 
simultaneity of
    events. Exactly, but the important point is that is the simultaneity of 
actual
    events, not of clock time readings. Observers can simultaneously shake 
hands even if
    their clocks have different clock times (their clocks are not 
simultaneous). Actual
    versus clock time simultaneity. Two completely different things!

    That's the absolutely critical point to understanding my thesis.

    ACTUAL simultaneity (2 observers shaking hands) IS self-evident. Do you 
dispute
    that? You can't...

    The experiment that proves my thesis is the hand shaking. Absolute 
incontrovertible
    proof of actual simultaneity.

    That is how to operationalize P-time. By actual simultaneity. It CANNOT be 
measured
    by clock time as proven above.


    The P-time now of Caesar is long gone. Unfortunately for you, you can only 
share the
    same NOW as Edgar, not Caesar! :-)

    Yes, P-seconds should be calculable from Omega. Differences from the clock 
time age
    of the universe can account for things like inflation, Hubble expansion etc.

    However please note that the whole notion of 'the ~14.7 billion year age of 
the
    universe', of an age of the universe, that is the same for all observers 
means that
    cosmology DOES accept the notion of a single common universal present 
moment since
    cosmology assumes that age of he universe is going to be the same anywhere 
in the
    universe for every observer.

    That's very important confirmation of the notion of a single common 
universal
    present moment. Cosmology accepts my thesis of a common universal present 
moment of
    existence.

    Edgar





    On Sunday, December 29, 2013 12:35:01 AM UTC-5, Pierz wrote:


        On Sunday, December 29, 2013 2:19:57 PM UTC+11, Edgar L. Owen wrote:

            Pierz,

            The common universal present moment is defined and measured simply 
by
            observers observing they are in the same moment at the same time.

        How do they observe that they are in the same moment except by the 
simultaneity
        of events in their perceived time-space environment?

            It is self-evident

        really?  It is anything but self-evident that different moments in 
clock time
        are "the same moment". I don't even know what what means. Sure it's
        'self-evident' that the now I experience is present everywhere. But that
        self-evident truth was qualified by relativity, which was the actual 
great leap
        forward in our understanding of time.

            and experimentally proved


        again - really? You can't even tell me how to measure "P-time" so I 
fail to see
        how any experiment has or can prove such a thing. If this is physical,
        scientific theory as opposed to a metaphysical speculation about "the 
eternal
        Now" a la Eckhart Tolle, then you *must* be able to provide some means 
of
        measuring your proposed physical quantity or entity. Again I ask: how 
will you
        prove this sharing of a moment other than by blustering that it is 
"self-evident"?

            that they can be in the same present moment even if their clock 
time t
            values are not simultaneous. And it's not just an event, as some 
have
            maintained, its the standard mode of existence of everyone 
throughout their
            lives to share the same present moment with others.

            Clocks? We don't need no stinkin clocks! Clocks don't measure 
P-time, they
            measure clock time.....
            :-)

            P-time doesn't fail.


        The *concept* of P-time fails as far as physics goes, as far as I can 
tell,
        because you can't operationalize it. You can only make exasperated 
noises that
        no-one else "gets it" except you despite it's being so obvious.

            It can't. It is simply impossible for anyone or anything to escape 
the
            present moment. That's the basic fact of our existence for goodness 
sakes!
            The present moment is the locus, and only locus of reality. Without 
a
            present moment there could be no reality. The presence of reality 
manifests
            as the present moment....


        Fine so far as it goes. The Now is ever-present and unchanging while 
phenomena,
        including clocks, move through it as it were. In some sense, all things 
happen
        Now and nothing will ever occur anywhere except Now and we all share 
it. That's
        the Now of Eckart Tolle's "The Power of Now". The problem is when you 
try to
        insist that this is a concept relevant to physics. Let me ask: do I 
share the
        "Now" with you as you were an hour ago? Do I share the same "now" as 
Caesar at
        the moment of his death? In the metaphysical sense, maybe. But not in 
any way
        that is relevant to physics and measured time. *Which" moment are we 
sharing if
        not a moment we can measure with a clock? If you just say "the current 
present
        moment, for goodness sake!" you are merely demonstrating that your 
concept is a
        tautology.


            Your last paragraph fails because it is all about measuring CLOCK 
time, not
            P-time. It's irrelevant to the discussion of P-time.

            P-time is the radial dimension of our hyperspherical universe back 
to the
            point of the big bang. The surface is our 3-dimensional universe


        4-dimensional - there's the whole problem!

            in the present moment which is the locus of reality and all that 
exists. As
            the P-time radial dimension


        Wow, so time P-time is single dimension orthogonal to the 3 dimensions 
of space
        that proceeds at a constant rate? It sounds *just like* good old clock 
time did
        in Newton's day! In fact just like our natural, naive intuition of time 
before
        an immense amount of deep thought and hard work on Einstein's part 
revealed that
        intuition to be mistaken.

            extends happening occurs within the present moment and the current 
state of
            the universe in continually computed. This is experienced as 
'proper time'
            which is always the same no matter at what rate clock time is 
running.

            The only way P-time can be measured that I know of is from Omega, 
the
            curvature of the universe, from which we can compute the radius = 
P-time
            dimension. Anyone know what that equation would be?


        So a measurement requires units. If P-time can be calculated from the 
"curvature
        of the universe" (itself problematic, since space-time is warped and 
curved by
        gravity and is not a simple sphere), then what units will result? 
P-seconds? Is
        there any way to convert P-seconds to normal, good-ole clock seconds? 
If there's
        no use the P-time measurement in any other equation with other physical
        quantities such as time, distance, mass etc, then one has to wonder 
what on
        earth good it is.

            Edgar



            On Saturday, December 28, 2013 8:33:23 PM UTC-5, Pierz wrote:

                Everyone else has made excellent, well laid-out arguments 
against your
                position Edgar, but I will throw in another perspective. You 
ask whether
                two observers 'share the same common present moment'. However 
you don't
                define what that means exactly. If I imagine your scenario of 
two
                observers who aren't me then of course they seem to share the 
same
                moment, regardless of how far apart they are. To say they 
"don't share
                the same moment" would be like saying that one exists and the 
other
                doesn't at some point in time, right? But this is really 
begging the
                question about what a "point in time" is. You seem to be 
relying on an
                intuitive sense of time that is not bound to anything 
measurable (the
                hidden point of my tongue-in-cheek 'U-time'). How need to 
define what
                you mean by "sharing the same moment" and you need to show how 
it is to
                be measured. I submit that the only method of making such a
                determination is by means of something that measures clock 
time. For
                example, a clock! And you already agree that clocks will show 
that the
                observers don't precisely agree about the simultaneity of 
events.

                In fact, to make the whole situation clearer, it is better not 
to use
                observers or people as the objects said to share the same 
common present
                because observers persist in time and this makes things less 
clear.
                Instead, you should ask the same question about a momentary 
event like a
                pulse of light from a diode. Do the diodes themselves share the 
"same
                present moment"? Yes, whatever that means! Do the flashes occur
                simultaneously? Well you know the answer depends on the 
inertial frame
                of reference. Substituting a mental event (the thought "I am here 
now")
                for the light flash, we can see that two thinkers cannot have 
that
                thought at an objectively identical moment. All events can be 
timed
                using clocks, which after all cold be anything that has a 
regular cycle.
                There is nothing in space-time, including mental events, that 
is not an
                event that can be timed in this manner. What is confusing you 
is merely
                the persistence of the observer and the impossibility of 
imagining that
                both observers don't exist at any point in time you can 
imagine. But
                *what* observer? The observer is constantly changing, and the 
only way
                to see if they share the same moment is to time the changes in 
each
                using clock time. P-time is an ad hoc postulate to save your 
intuition
                of an all-embracing moment. It fails when you try to 
operationalize it.

                Please, rather than reiterate your intuition, refute this point.

                On Saturday, December 28, 2013 10:57:18 AM UTC+11, Edgar L. 
Owen wrote:

                    All,

                    I haven't made any progress getting the idea of a common 
universal
                    present moment across so here's another approach with a 
thought
                    experiment....

                    To start consider two observers standing next to each 
other. Do they
                    share the same common present moment? Yes, of course. Any 
disagreement?

                    Now consider those two observers, one in New York, one in 
San
                    Francisco. Do they share the same common present moment? In 
other
                    words is the one in San Fran doing something (doesn't 
matter what)
                    at the exact same time the one in New is doing something? 
Yes, of
                    course they do share the same present moment. Any 
disagreement?

                    Now consider an observer on earth and an observer in some 
far away
                    galaxy. But with the condition that they share the exact 
same
                    relativistic frame in the sense that there is zero relative 
motion
                    and the gravities of their planets are exactly the same so 
that
                    clock time is passing at the exact same rate on both their 
clocks.

                    Now are these two observers sharing the exact same present 
moment as
                    well? Note that we just extended the exact same relativistic
                    circumstances of the previous two examples so there can be 
no
                    relativistic considerations. Do these two observers also 
share the
                    exact same present moment as well? Yes, of course they do. 
Not only
                    do they share the exact same present moment but they also 
share the
                    exact same clock time t value. Any disagreement?

                    OK, if you agree then you have to take a partial step 
towards
                    accepting my thesis of a common universal present moment. 
You now
                    must agree that there is at least a common universal 
present moment
                    across the universe for all observers in the same 
relativistic frame.

                    Agreed?

                    Edgar

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