Jason,

I think it preferable to discuss posts under the relevant topic. That's why 
I started a new topic. It doesn't make sense for me for a single thread to 
morph to many new unrelated topics. That is why your original post on this 
subject would have made more sense to be posted under my new topic to which 
it refers rather than this 'wavefunctions' topic to which it is only 
peripheral.

There are over 500 posts in some topics, most of which are not germane to 
the original topic. That's confusing and hard to refer to relevant 
subthreads.

In any case, the theory I stated is NOT a hidden variable theory. There are 
no hidden variables at all in my explanation. Please, respectfully, reread 
it and see there are none...

Edgar

On Thursday, January 2, 2014 12:55:50 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote:
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 11:44 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net<javascript:>
> > wrote:
>
>> Jason,
>>
>> No, please carefully read my new topic post "Another shot at how 
>> spacetime emerges from quantum events" 
>>
>
> Okay.
>
> Just as a tip, which I think will make  things a little easier for others 
> to follow a conversation, is to generally it is best to answer new 
> questions within the same thread where the question is asked, and ideally 
> with responses in-line with the question. This is the usual convention on 
> this list.  To be clear, I think it is fine to say "I've already answered 
> question X in thread Y", but if it is a new question in thread Z, it is 
> probably better to answer it in thread Z. 
>
> This is particularly true as it is common for a single thread to grow to 
> include dozens, if not hundreds of responses, and locating the answer in 
> that thread can become very difficult.
>  
>
>> where I explain this process in detail. You will see why it doesn't lead 
>> to MW but instead to many fragmentary spacetimes (entanglement networks) 
>> which link and align via shared events. But all this occurs in the same 
>> underlying computational (not dimensional) space which everything is part 
>> of.
>>
>> The spin orientation of the two particles is fixed in their mutual frame 
>> when they are created. It's just that that frame (entanglement network) is 
>> not linked to that of the observer until a common event (observer's 
>> measurement of one particle's spin) links and aligns the particles' spin 
>> orientation frame to that of the observer's. Prior to that they are 
>> completely separate spacetimes. That's why the spins are indeterminate in 
>> the frame of the observer until he measures one and by doing so links and 
>> aligns their frame with his.
>>
>> This process falsifies FTL, non-locality, MWI (unless you want to call 
>> the fragmentary entanglement networks separate worlds. They are separate 
>> spacetime fragments but not really separate 'worlds' since they continually 
>> merge and align at common events in the SAME computational reality.)
>>
>>
> But the point I and others have repeatedly made is that this is a local 
> hidden variable theory, which is unworkable without FTL influences (given 
> Bell's theorem, which is a mathematical proof).
>
> Jason
>  
>
>> Edgar
>>
>> On Thursday, January 2, 2014 9:11:57 AM UTC-5, Jason wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Thu, Jan 2, 2014 at 7:53 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edga...@att.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Jason,
>>>>
>>>> Great! An amazing post! You seem to have correctly gotten part of the 
>>>> theory I proposed in my separate topic "Another stab at how spacetime 
>>>> emerges from quantum events." Please refer to that topic to confirm...
>>>>
>>>> Do you understand how the fact that the spins are determined in the 
>>>> frames of the spinning particles WHEN they are created falsifies FTL and 
>>>> non-locality?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, but I also think this leads to many worlds, since there is not a 
>>> single state of the superposition. The particle pair is not just Up_Ddown 
>>> or Down_Up, but both Up_Down + Down_Up. After the measurement, it is 
>>> Measured_Up_Down + Measured_Down_Up.
>>>
>>> Bell's inequality leads to a refutation that the two particles can have 
>>> just a single state.
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>  
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Edgar
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Wednesday, January 1, 2014 2:21:33 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Jan 1, 2014 at 4:33 AM, LizR <liz...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 1 January 2014 21:34, meekerdb <meek...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  On 12/31/2013 7:22 PM, LizR wrote:
>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>  On 1 January 2014 13:54, meekerdb <meek...@verizon.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>  Of course in Hilbert space there's no FTL because the system is 
>>>>>>>> just one point and when a measurement is performed it projects the 
>>>>>>>> system 
>>>>>>>> ray onto a mixture of subspaces; spacetime coordinates are just some 
>>>>>>>> labels.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>  I thought there was no FTL in ordinary space, either? (I mean, 
>>>>>>> none required for the MWI?)
>>>>>>>   
>>>>>>> Right, but the state in Hilbert space is something like |x1 y1 z1 s1 
>>>>>>> x2 y2 z2 s2> and when Alice measures s1 at (x1 y1 z1) then s2 is 
>>>>>>> correlated 
>>>>>>> at (x2 y2 z2).  As I understand it the MWI advocates say this isn't FTL 
>>>>>>> because this is just selecting out one of infinitely many results |s1 
>>>>>>> s2>.  
>>>>>>> But the 'selection' has to pair up the spins in a way that violates 
>>>>>>> Bell's 
>>>>>>> inequality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I understand correctly ... actually, let me just check if I do, 
>>>>>> before I go any further, in case I'm talking out my arse. Which wouldn't 
>>>>>> be 
>>>>>> the first time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I assume we're talking about an EPR correlation here?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If yes, I've never understood how the MWI explains this.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The thing to remember is entanglement is the same thing as 
>>>>> measurement.  The entangled pair of particles have measured each other, 
>>>>> but 
>>>>> they remain isolated from the rest of the environment (and thus in a 
>>>>> superposition, of say UD and DU). Once you as an observer measure either 
>>>>> of 
>>>>> the two particles, you have by extension measured both of them, since the 
>>>>> position, which you measured has already measured the electron, and now 
>>>>> you 
>>>>> are entangled in their superposition.
>>>>>
>>>>> Jason
>>>>>
>>>>>  
>>>>>
>>>>>>  I've see it explained with ASCII diagrams by Bill Taylor on the FOAR 
>>>>>> forum, and far be it from me to quibble with Bill, but it never made 
>>>>>> sense 
>>>>>> to me. Somehow, the various branches just join up correctly...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The only explanation I've come across that I really understand for 
>>>>>> EPR, and that doesn't violate locality etc is the time symmetry one, 
>>>>>> where 
>>>>>> all influences travel along the light cone, but are allowed to go either 
>>>>>> way in time.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So although I quite like the MWI because of its ontological 
>>>>>> implications, this is one point on which I am agnostic, because I don't 
>>>>>> understand the explanation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>      In fact, it's generally assumed to be very, very STL (unless 
>>>>>>>> light itself is involved). At great distances from the laboratory, one 
>>>>>>>> imagines that the superposition caused by whatever we might do to cats 
>>>>>>>> in 
>>>>>>>> boxes would decay to the level of noise, and fail to spread any 
>>>>>>>> further. 
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>  That's an interesting viewpoint - but it's taking spacetime 
>>>>>>>> instead of Hilbert space to be the arena.  If we take the cat, either 
>>>>>>>> alive 
>>>>>>>> or dead, and shoot it off into space then, as a signal, it won't fall 
>>>>>>>> off 
>>>>>>>> as 1/r^2.
>>>>>>>>  
>>>>>>>>  No, but it will travel STL!
>>>>>>>   
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sure.  I was just commenting on the idea that the entanglement has a 
>>>>>>> kind of limited range because of 'background noise'.  An interesting 
>>>>>>> idea, 
>>>>>>> similar to one I've had that there is a smallest non-zero probability.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But if you want to get FTL, that's possible if Alice and Bob are 
>>>>>>> near opposite sides of our Hubble sphere when they do their 
>>>>>>> measurements.  
>>>>>>> They are then already moving apart faster than c and will never be able 
>>>>>>> to 
>>>>>>> communicate - with each other, but we, in the middle will eventually 
>>>>>>> receive reports from them so that we can confirm the violation of 
>>>>>>> Bell's 
>>>>>>> inequality.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hmm, that's a good point. That would, however, fit in nicely with 
>>>>>> time symmetry (which really needs a nice acronym, I'm not sure "TS" cuts 
>>>>>> it). I tend to evangelise a bit on time symmetry, but only because 
>>>>>> everyone 
>>>>>> else roundly ignores it, and it seems to me that it at least has 
>>>>>> potential.
>>>>>>  
>>>>>>
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