By the way, those looking for perhaps a little more substance for Edgar's
theories might enjoy his public blog at http://edgarlowen.info/edgar.shtml,
there is some material there that presumably also appears in his book.

Terren


On Tue, Jan 14, 2014 at 9:17 AM, Edgar L. Owen <edgaro...@att.net> wrote:

> Bruno,
>
> Thanks for clarifying this for the group. Please let Liz know that she was
> wrong in stating that physics was on a formal basis long ago...
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, January 14, 2014 5:01:51 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 14 Jan 2014, at 00:42, Edgar L. Owen wrote:
>>
>> > Liz,
>> >
>> > Sigh.... Now we have several people complaining because I haven't
>> > offered a 'formal theory'. However not a single one of the
>> > complainers has themselves offered a formal theory even though they
>> > are continually offering theories of their own, none of which are
>> > formalized. Is that fair?
>> >
>> > The only person on this group who has a formal theory that I'm aware
>> > of is Bruno. No one else? You don't have one of your own but you are
>> > criticizing me because I don't have one?
>> >
>> > What you guys don't seem to understand is that whether a theory
>> > accurately describes reality or not is a much more important
>> > criterion than whether that theory is formalized or not. Physics
>> > described reality quite accurately for years before it reached its
>> > current degree of formalization and that's why it was accepted.
>>
>> Physicists have not yet formal theory. Like all scientists they work
>> informally.
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Doesn't really matter whether you have a formal theory or not if
>> > there is no connection to reality now does there? Bruno's theory is
>> > apparently quite tightly formalized
>>
>> The main reasoning is not formal (UDA), yet rigorous. "formalizing" in
>> logic, just mean "interviewing some machine", usually in case where
>> the machine is plausibly sound (like PA, ZF).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > but I see none of the required actual consistency with reality to
>> > indicate it actually applies to reality at all.
>> >
>> > Bruno's theory may itself be logically consistent, but I see no
>> > consistency with actual reality.
>>
>> Nobody can see or prove consistency of a monist TOE (which include the
>> maker of the theory).
>>
>> The question should be "do you see an inconsistency"?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Mine on the other hand is entirely consistent with actual reality
>>
>> Then you cannot belong as object of talk  in your theory, and your
>> theory cannot be fundamental (unless you explicitly make it dualist,
>> or "highly non computationalist).
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > because it clearly states that the computations of its computational
>> > reality are precisely what is actually necessary to compute the real
>> > processes of nature, whatever they are.
>>
>> terms like "necessay", "actually" "real" "processes", "nature" must be
>> defined. Anad as you do NOT use the satandard mathematical notion of
>> computation, you should (re)defined that term too.
>>
>>
>>
>> >
>> > Bruno's on the other hand makes the wild and unsubstantiated
>> > assumption that all possible math is 'out there' in reality somehow
>> > even if it's doing nothing.
>>
>> I do not that assumption. tegmark does it, but I have criticize it as
>> non sense many times on this list.
>>
>> I assume only that "17 is prime" is independent of me and you. *All*
>> scientist assumes this. Even you assume this when mentioning for
>> example the quantum vacuum. If you can define it without assuming
>> arithmetical realism, then publish a paper, because that would be a
>> big discovery.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > A very improbable assumption there is no empirical evidence for
>> > whatsoever.
>>
>> It is even inconsistent. But I do not assume it.
>>
>>
>>
>> > Doesn't matter in the least if the logical consequences of that
>> > initial assumption are tight and valid (a formalized theory) if the
>> > assumption itself isn't.
>> >
>> > I just hope you guys understand what I'm saying is a basis of
>> > scientific method.
>>
>>
>> I doubt that this is the case. We still don't know you basic
>> assumptions. You don't have a theory, even an informal one.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Doesn't matter so much if a theory is formalized. What matters is
>> > its explanatory power and consistency with actually observed
>> > phenomena.
>>
>> It must make sense before. Non sensical theory have easily a lot of
>> explanatory power, but it eventually explains to much and appear
>> inconsistent.
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
>>
>>
>>
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