Bruno,

If the fundamental axioms of arithmetic are the fundamental axioms of your 
UDA then where do those come from?

Unless you can answer that question you have a gap in your theory that mine 
doesn't have.....

Edgar



On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 8:50:44 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 15 Jan 2014, at 13:41, Edgar L. Owen wrote:
>
> Bruno,
>
> Of course it is circular - but it is meaningful.
>
>
> Without further ado, circular statements are *to much* meaningful. 
>
>
>
> The fundamental axiom MUST be circular, 
>
>
> Is that anew meta-axiom? Again, that is not obvious at all.
>
>
>
>
> but it must be so in a meaningful way. I already noted that when I said it 
> was 'self-necessitating'.
>
>
> "self-necessitating" contains two hot complex notions: "self" and 
> "necessitate".
>
> We want to explain the complex from the simple, not the other way round.
>
>
>
>
> So far as I know my Existence Axiom is the most meaningful fundamental 
> axiom.
>
>
> If that was true, you would not need to say so. 
>
>
>
>
> What is YOUR fundamental axiom? 'Arithmetic exists because arithmetic 
> exists' perhaps? Sounds like a similarly circular axiom to me....
>
>
> You should also never put statements in the mouth of others, especially 
> when they are completely ridiculous, like if I would have said that 
> "arithmetic exists because arithmetic exists".
>
> I am working at two levels: an intuitive meta-level, where the assumption 
> is a precise version of Milinda-Descartes old mechanist assumption. To put 
> it shortly it says that not only I can survive with an artificial heart, 
> kidney, skin, but that the brain is not excluded from that list. It means 
> that my body functions, at some level,  like some sort of machine.  As far 
> as I understand you, it is implied by your "computational stance". 
> So my assumption, at that level, is a tiny part of your assumption.
>
> By reasoning at that meta-level (UDA), we get as "meta-theorem" that the 
> TOE does not need to assume more than the usual elementary axioms of 
> arithmetic. One precise theory is classical logic + the axioms, where you 
> can read s(x) by "the successor of the number x".
>
> 0 ≠ s(x)
> s(x) = s(y) -> x = y
> x+0 = x
> x+s(y) = s(x+y)
> x*0=0
> x*s(y)=(x*y)+x
>
> Then, in that theory, all the terms I need are defined. It is in that 
> theory that we define the observers and derive physics (and more). That's 
> AUDA, or "the machine's interview" (in the sane2004 paper). Comp makes the 
> whole thing both mathematical and experimentally testable.
>
> Bruno
>
>
>
>
> Edgar
>
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 15, 2014 3:10:30 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 14 Jan 2014, at 19:05, Edgar L. Owen wrote: 
>>
>> > Bruno, 
>> > 
>> > 'Non-existence cannot exist', obviously refers to the existence of   
>> > reality itself, 
>>
>> Then it is circular. 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > not to milk in your refrigerator! Existence must exist means   
>> > something must exist, whether it's milk or whatever. Individual   
>> > things have individual localized existences, but existence (reality)   
>> > itself is everywhere because it defines the logical space of reality   
>> > by its existence. 
>>
>> That is not intelligible. 
>>
>>
>>
>> > 
>> > The Axiom of Existence means there was never a nothingness out of   
>> > which somethingness (the universe) was created. 
>>
>> Assuming that there is a "universe". But then you do not explain why   
>> there is something. You just assume this. You axiom is "something   
>> exists". 
>>
>>
>>
>> > 
>> > Milk is created by female mammals in case you had some doubt? 
>> > :-) 
>> > 
>> > Next question: Reality IS a computational MACHINE in the general   
>> > sense of machine. 
>>
>> That is digital physics, which is refuted. 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Thus of course consistency applies to it. 
>>
>> That does not follow. Machines can be inconsistent. 
>>
>> Bruno 
>>
>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ 
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>
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