Dear Friends, Is there a single objective definition of "damage to the environment"?
On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 3:02 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > On 04 Apr 2014, at 19:32, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:55 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > >> >> On 02 Apr 2014, at 23:03, LizR wrote: >> >> On 3 April 2014 05:56, Chris de Morsella <cdemorse...@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> -----Original Message----- >>> From: everything-list@googlegroups.com >>> [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of smi...@zonnet.nl >>> >>> It is the belief that the scentists can be trusted to do the research >>> they >>> are supposed to do in a scientifically responsible way, vs. the belief in >>> the conspiracy theory that the entire scientific field has been hijacked >>> by >>> ultra left wing environmental pressure groups. >>> >>> Saibal >>> >>> A conspiracy theory that has become spread through massive funding by the >>> big holders of fossil carbon reserves -- seeking to protect the future >>> valuation of those reserves, which has a large impact on the current >>> valuation of their carbon holdings. An eminently rational (if cynical) >>> motive, for these narrow carbon interests, but one that has sowed >>> confusion >>> and doubt, using the same "junk science" (and "left wing hijacked >>> science") >>> accusations that were perfected by Big Tobacco in the preceding decades. >>> It >>> worked then for Big Tobacco and this same strategy of sowing falsehoods, >>> is >>> working now for the big carbon interests. >>> >>> Exactly. It's even been making some headway in the interests of denying >> evolution, for God (as it were) knows what reason. >> >> >> >> That is why I don't think politics is possible as long as prohibition >> continue. It has been used as a sort of Trojan horse for bandits, and they >> will sell you what they want. >> >> Stopping prohibition will not be enough. We must separate politics from >> money. >> > > Agreed, but I think there's a subtly here -- politics in necessarily about > money, because money is the fundamental tool that we have to manage > resources, unless someone figures out a way to make communism work. There's > nothing fundamentally good or evil about money, it's just a neutral tool > that can be used both ways. > > > I agree, the problem is black money only, and grey money. But I still > believe that lobbying should be without money. If not you get big pharma, > and big tobacco, voting for you. Electoral campaign should be payed with > taxes, and be minimal, and equal for all party/politicians. > > > > > > I see the problem as more one of managing incentives. People react to > incentives. I strongly believe that the pollution problem could be > mitigated quickly if the free market had the incentive to do so. Carbon > credits are a horrible idea, because they reinforce bad behaviours without > creating the incentives that can actually solve the problem. > > If an objective cost can be calculated for the damage that certain > companies cause to the environment, then let's charge them for this and > re-distribute this money directly to the people, with no special rules or > distinctions. Just a simple division. None of this money should ever fall > under the control of politicians. Then the companies have an incentive to > solve the problem, and less people have an incentive to lie. > > > I am not sure that this is really realist, especially if the problem are > big, mundial, and unaffordable by most companies responsible. Then if you > have the (black) money, you can dilute the responsibility efficaciously. > > But again, my point was concerned with the "origin" of bad dishonest > politics and its maintenance by special corporate interests. > > If a politicians can be proved to have lied on technical matter should be > fired. Perhaps. > > > > > This should be purely handed by the police and the courts, in the same way > that they are used to place a cost on other undesirable behaviours. If > instead this money falls under the control of politicians, we now have two > problems. > > > > OK. > > Bruno > > > > > Best, > Telmo. > > >> We should vote on ideas and not humans. We should find a way to prevent >> democracies against propaganda, if not corporatism. >> >> The green should be ally with the antiprohibitionists. I do think that >> "prohibition" is the deep reason of possible climate perturbation, and >> economy. >> Like the abandon of rationality in the "spiritual" is the deep reason of >> why the non-sensical prohibition has seem conceivable today. >> >> >> Bruno >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/-LyjqBLxxFY/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Kindest Regards, Stephen Paul King Senior Researcher Mobile: (864) 567-3099 stephe...@provensecure.com http://www.provensecure.us/ "This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as attorney work product. 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