What do all these have in common? Boil it down to the essence.
On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Chris de Morsella <cdemorse...@yahoo.com>wrote: > Good question. There are so many metrics. > > A given environments bio-diversity for example (although bio-diversity > ranges widely from place to place - a single valley in a bio-diversity hot > spot in some place like Costa Rica can have a greater variety of species > than an entire region of arboreal forest for example) But if one has good > base line measurements of bio-diversity over time and can graph a collapse > in this for some region then that is a pretty good indicator that something > very disruptive of the ecosystem is happening. > > Biomass is another good metric - the estimated annual production of total > biomass per unit area will often also collapse when an ecosystem gets into > serious trouble. A related yardstick that is pretty good is the organic > matter content in top soil; good healthy soil is full of living things and > organic matter. > > A damaged environment typically is one that is rapidly losing its topsoil > - for land environmental niches only and not oceanic ecosystems, of course > . Denuded land also loses its ability for water retention. An area that is > in ecological trouble is often losing bio-diversity, and the ability to > support a biomass without the addition of chemical inputs... and is also > often characterized by the presence of invasive species. > > I am sure there are other important measurements - for example water > quality, rates of mutation, sperm count, disease and parasite statistics > and many other metrics I have missed. > > Chris > > > > *From:* everything-list@googlegroups.com [mailto: > everything-list@googlegroups.com] *On Behalf Of *Stephen Paul King > *Sent:* Sunday, April 06, 2014 10:18 AM > > *To:* everything-list@googlegroups.com > *Subject:* Re: Climate models > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > Is there a single objective definition of "damage to the environment"? > > > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 3:02 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > > > On 04 Apr 2014, at 19:32, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:55 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: > > > > On 02 Apr 2014, at 23:03, LizR wrote: > > > > On 3 April 2014 05:56, Chris de Morsella <cdemorse...@yahoo.com> wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: everything-list@googlegroups.com > [mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of smi...@zonnet.nl > > It is the belief that the scentists can be trusted to do the research they > are supposed to do in a scientifically responsible way, vs. the belief in > the conspiracy theory that the entire scientific field has been hijacked by > ultra left wing environmental pressure groups. > > Saibal > > A conspiracy theory that has become spread through massive funding by the > big holders of fossil carbon reserves -- seeking to protect the future > valuation of those reserves, which has a large impact on the current > valuation of their carbon holdings. An eminently rational (if cynical) > motive, for these narrow carbon interests, but one that has sowed confusion > and doubt, using the same "junk science" (and "left wing hijacked science") > accusations that were perfected by Big Tobacco in the preceding decades. It > worked then for Big Tobacco and this same strategy of sowing falsehoods, > is > working now for the big carbon interests. > > Exactly. It's even been making some headway in the interests of denying > evolution, for God (as it were) knows what reason. > > > > > > That is why I don't think politics is possible as long as prohibition > continue. It has been used as a sort of Trojan horse for bandits, and they > will sell you what they want. > > > > Stopping prohibition will not be enough. We must separate politics from > money. > > > > Agreed, but I think there's a subtly here -- politics in necessarily about > money, because money is the fundamental tool that we have to manage > resources, unless someone figures out a way to make communism work. There's > nothing fundamentally good or evil about money, it's just a neutral tool > that can be used both ways. > > > > I agree, the problem is black money only, and grey money. But I still > believe that lobbying should be without money. If not you get big pharma, > and big tobacco, voting for you. Electoral campaign should be payed with > taxes, and be minimal, and equal for all party/politicians. > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the problem as more one of managing incentives. People react to > incentives. I strongly believe that the pollution problem could be > mitigated quickly if the free market had the incentive to do so. Carbon > credits are a horrible idea, because they reinforce bad behaviours without > creating the incentives that can actually solve the problem. > > > > If an objective cost can be calculated for the damage that certain > companies cause to the environment, then let's charge them for this and > re-distribute this money directly to the people, with no special rules or > distinctions. Just a simple division. None of this money should ever fall > under the control of politicians. Then the companies have an incentive to > solve the problem, and less people have an incentive to lie. > > > > I am not sure that this is really realist, especially if the problem are > big, mundial, and unaffordable by most companies responsible. Then if you > have the (black) money, you can dilute the responsibility efficaciously. > > > > But again, my point was concerned with the "origin" of bad dishonest > politics and its maintenance by special corporate interests. > > > > If a politicians can be proved to have lied on technical matter should be > fired. Perhaps. > > > > > > > > > > This should be purely handed by the police and the courts, in the same way > that they are used to place a cost on other undesirable behaviours. If > instead this money falls under the control of politicians, we now have two > problems. > > > > > > OK. > > > > Bruno > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > Telmo. > > > > We should vote on ideas and not humans. We should find a way to prevent > democracies against propaganda, if not corporatism. > > > > The green should be ally with the antiprohibitionists. I do think that > "prohibition" is the deep reason of possible climate perturbation, and > economy. > > Like the abandon of rationality in the "spiritual" is the deep reason of > why the non-sensical prohibition has seem conceivable today. > > > > > > Bruno > > > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/-LyjqBLxxFY/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > > -- > > Kindest Regards, > > Stephen Paul King > > Senior Researcher > > Mobile: (864) 567-3099 > > stephe...@provensecure.com > > http://www.provensecure.us/ > > > "This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of > the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain > information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and > exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as > attorney work product. 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