Hi Chris, Given the complexity that you have pointed out, is it a legitimate expectation to assume that it is even possible to define regulations that are not disruptive and themselves harmful? My point is that we should be very careful in our thinking about environmental issues to be sure that our understanding is in line with facts. Sometimes regulations and policies can cause more harm then good.
On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 8:31 PM, Chris de Morsella <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Stephen Paul King > > > > What do all these have in common? Boil it down to the essence. > > > > If it were that easy J > > An ecosystem is an emergent phenomena... a whole that is more than and > cannot be understood just by looking at its parts. Just as there are > thousands upon thousands of different pathways by which a single organism > can become ill so it is with ecosystems. Just as it is hard - without a > careful medical examination - to know if an individual is healthy or not... > thus it is with ecosystems. > > Complex multi-variant, multi-systemic, co-effective systems are not simple > single dimensional problem domains. Just like a person requires a thorough > medical exam (and even that is no guarantee, often diseases - or systemic > ill health -- are missed by medical exams) - so it is with the complex > inter-acting web of life that we represent with the term ecosystem. There > are many orthogonal dimensions of complexity, of resource and energy flows > in and through an ecosystem, which in some ways acts like in its locale as > a dysentropy engine, exploiting for the most part the solar flux as the > energy gradient, but also using chemical gradients in rock and cold deep > water gas seeps, the hot smokers where life gets right up to the edge of > those very hot mineral saturated vents and makes a living. > > Each single organism - at least large ones - which would be anything > bigger than the smallest microscopic flea really -- should also be > understood as a kind of ecosystem itself (for example: By census - Not mass > -- 90% of the living microorganisms, including human cells -- in a typical > human do not have human DNA ... or that for example there are fifty types (or > so.. whose counting) of micro-organism species that have specialized in > making a living on human tooth enamel alone... and we have not even gotten to > the gum line yet! ) > > It is a highly dynamic web of life - even within a single animal or plant. > We barely begin to get it and it is only by understanding the dynamic whole > system of systems that we can understand the emergent phenomena. > > One thing that as I have come to understand that my own living being is a > community of organisms, some parasitical no doubt, but as science is > increasingly discovering many that have ancient and important roles in the > meta-entity that is the emergent animal. I used to see a monkey and see a > monkey, now I see a monkey community and have come around to the > understanding that the ecosystem does not stop at the level of the > individual organism, but that we are sieves most intimately bathed and > connected to our environments... that the ecosystem extends right on into the > individual organism at the scale of the cell and the even much smaller > scale of the bacterium or virus. > > The ecosystem is the organisms in it and like a rivers extends into ever > smaller tributaries and streams, into little creeks and trickles of water > the ecosystem extends right on into you... it is alive now in your gut (and > all throughout your body) and it is helping keep you alive. We are > discovering organisms that do nothing in terms of digesting food in our gut > for example that eat off our table so to speak, but that we now are finding > are active participating agents working with our body's immune system at > the gut interface - which is where the digested food enters the body, which > also makes it the prime vector for disease organisms as well and is hence > the front line of our immune system. These microorganisms signal to our > body's immune system the presence and perhaps even type of pathogen from > the other side of the gut barrier - on the inside of the tube. This is > active cooperation between species at the cellular level and it seems to me > like there si a lot of this going on all the time in every kind of life > form. > > Where does the ecosystem begin and were does it end? > > Chris > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 2:23 PM, Chris de Morsella <[email protected]> > wrote: > > Good question. There are so many metrics. > > A given environments bio-diversity for example (although bio-diversity > ranges widely from place to place - a single valley in a bio-diversity hot > spot in some place like Costa Rica can have a greater variety of species > than an entire region of arboreal forest for example) But if one has good > base line measurements of bio-diversity over time and can graph a collapse > in this for some region then that is a pretty good indicator that something > very disruptive of the ecosystem is happening. > > Biomass is another good metric - the estimated annual production of total > biomass per unit area will often also collapse when an ecosystem gets into > serious trouble. A related yardstick that is pretty good is the organic > matter content in top soil; good healthy soil is full of living things and > organic matter. > > A damaged environment typically is one that is rapidly losing its topsoil > - for land environmental niches only and not oceanic ecosystems, of course > . Denuded land also loses its ability for water retention. An area that is > in ecological trouble is often losing bio-diversity, and the ability to > support a biomass without the addition of chemical inputs... and is also > often characterized by the presence of invasive species. > > I am sure there are other important measurements - for example water > quality, rates of mutation, sperm count, disease and parasite statistics > and many other metrics I have missed. > > Chris > > > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *Stephen Paul King > *Sent:* Sunday, April 06, 2014 10:18 AM > > > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: Climate models > > > > Dear Friends, > > > > Is there a single objective definition of "damage to the environment"? > > > > On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 3:02 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On 04 Apr 2014, at 19:32, Telmo Menezes wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 3, 2014 at 8:55 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On 02 Apr 2014, at 23:03, LizR wrote: > > > > On 3 April 2014 05:56, Chris de Morsella <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: [email protected] > [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] > > It is the belief that the scentists can be trusted to do the research they > are supposed to do in a scientifically responsible way, vs. the belief in > the conspiracy theory that the entire scientific field has been hijacked by > ultra left wing environmental pressure groups. > > Saibal > > A conspiracy theory that has become spread through massive funding by the > big holders of fossil carbon reserves -- seeking to protect the future > valuation of those reserves, which has a large impact on the current > valuation of their carbon holdings. An eminently rational (if cynical) > motive, for these narrow carbon interests, but one that has sowed confusion > and doubt, using the same "junk science" (and "left wing hijacked science") > accusations that were perfected by Big Tobacco in the preceding decades. It > worked then for Big Tobacco and this same strategy of sowing falsehoods, > is > working now for the big carbon interests. > > Exactly. It's even been making some headway in the interests of denying > evolution, for God (as it were) knows what reason. > > > > > > That is why I don't think politics is possible as long as prohibition > continue. It has been used as a sort of Trojan horse for bandits, and they > will sell you what they want. > > > > Stopping prohibition will not be enough. We must separate politics from > money. > > > > Agreed, but I think there's a subtly here -- politics in necessarily about > money, because money is the fundamental tool that we have to manage > resources, unless someone figures out a way to make communism work. There's > nothing fundamentally good or evil about money, it's just a neutral tool > that can be used both ways. > > > > I agree, the problem is black money only, and grey money. But I still > believe that lobbying should be without money. If not you get big pharma, > and big tobacco, voting for you. Electoral campaign should be payed with > taxes, and be minimal, and equal for all party/politicians. > > > > > > > > > > > > I see the problem as more one of managing incentives. People react to > incentives. I strongly believe that the pollution problem could be > mitigated quickly if the free market had the incentive to do so. Carbon > credits are a horrible idea, because they reinforce bad behaviours without > creating the incentives that can actually solve the problem. > > > > If an objective cost can be calculated for the damage that certain > companies cause to the environment, then let's charge them for this and > re-distribute this money directly to the people, with no special rules or > distinctions. Just a simple division. None of this money should ever fall > under the control of politicians. Then the companies have an incentive to > solve the problem, and less people have an incentive to lie. > > > > I am not sure that this is really realist, especially if the problem are > big, mundial, and unaffordable by most companies responsible. Then if you > have the (black) money, you can dilute the responsibility efficaciously. > > > > But again, my point was concerned with the "origin" of bad dishonest > politics and its maintenance by special corporate interests. > > > > If a politicians can be proved to have lied on technical matter should be > fired. Perhaps. > > > > > > > > > > This should be purely handed by the police and the courts, in the same way > that they are used to place a cost on other undesirable behaviours. If > instead this money falls under the control of politicians, we now have two > problems. > > > > > > OK. > > > > Bruno > > > > > > > > > > Best, > > Telmo. > > > > We should vote on ideas and not humans. We should find a way to prevent > democracies against propaganda, if not corporatism. > > > > The green should be ally with the antiprohibitionists. I do think that > "prohibition" is the deep reason of possible climate perturbation, and > economy. > > Like the abandon of rationality in the "spiritual" is the deep reason of > why the non-sensical prohibition has seem conceivable today. > > > > > > Bruno > > > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/-LyjqBLxxFY/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > > > > -- > > Kindest Regards, > > Stephen Paul King > > Senior Researcher > > Mobile: (864) 567-3099 > > [email protected] > > http://www.provensecure.us/ > > > "This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of > the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain > information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and > exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as > attorney work product. 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