On Sunday, April 27, 2014 10:12:34 AM UTC+1, telmo_menezes wrote: > > > > > On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 10:43 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]<javascript:> > > wrote: > >> >> On 26 Apr 2014, at 21:15, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> >> >> >> On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 8:20 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]<javascript:> >> > wrote: >> >>> >>> On 26 Apr 2014, at 19:23, Telmo Menezes wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 6:38 PM, 'Chris de Morsella >>> <[email protected]<javascript:>>' >>> via Everything List <[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* [email protected] <javascript:> [mailto: >>>> [email protected] <javascript:>] *On Behalf Of *Telmo Menezes >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://infinitemachine.tumblr.com/image/83867790181 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> A nice weekend to everyone! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Nice graph; that gives a refreshing perspective on religion… as a human >>>> evolution of cultural behavior and norms, similar to say how language has >>>> a >>>> nice tree going back in time. >>>> >>> >>> Indeed. It seems plausible that religions are local maxima of >>> cooperation strategies. In recent History (compared to the time scale of >>> this graph), attempts to engineer new cooperation strategies require the >>> removal of existing religions. This was the case in both the communist >>> revolutions (Bolshevik and Maoist) and the enlightenment revolutions >>> (American and French). But naturally evolved religions are highly-adapted, >>> resilient organisms. >>> >>> >>> >>> Very nice graph. I appreciate the remark below it, which asks for some >>> the grains of salt. >>> >>> I am not sure we can eliminate a religion, but we can substitute it by >>> another (better or worst) religion. >>> >> >> Perhaps it's useful to make the distinction between religion as the >> social construct and religion as the private experience. >> >> >> >> Without forgetting religion as truth, or possible truth. >> >> Neither social construct nor private experience are easily related to >> that truth, even if they depend on it. >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> "cooperation strategies" needs some goal/sense, for which the >>> cooperation makes sense, and such goal refer to some implicit or explicit >>> religion or reality conception, I think. >>> >> >> I'm not so sure... Maybe our goals can be traced back to simple things >> selected by evolution, that all relate to survival + replication. Then it >> all collapses into complexification, and the goals only exist when seeing >> from the inside -- the species, organism, etc. This can lead to a view of >> public religion as more of a consequence than a cause. >> >> >> >> Nothing is obvious for me here. Even if in the 3p, our evolution is based >> only on duplication and survival, it does not mean that all this makes does >> not acquire sense from higher order perspective (like in arithmetic, >> technically). >> >> To survive relatively to a universal machine you have to be locally >> self-referentially correct relatively to that universal machine, but >> globally + taking into account the first person indeterminacy, and thus >> accounts of a non computable complex structure confronting us, things are >> less clear to me. >> Most of the arithmetical truth is non computable. >> Only god(s) know(s) where iteration of survival + replication can lead. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Maybe we have the potential to transcend biology, but I believe that >> remains to be seen. >> >> >> Well, there is transhumanism, which is a sort of will to apply comp as >> soon as possible. Google seems to have decided to invest in that direction. >> >> Then we have the biological shortcuts, the plants which succeeded in >> building molecules capable of mimicking some brain molecules. This can >> transcend biology at different levels. >> >> For the 3p long term destiny, I doubt we will completely abandon the >> carbon, but we will probably come back to something close to a little >> "social" bacteria, "with radio and GSM", constituting a giant computer. The >> virtual 1p will not necessarily change so much: we will still see ourselves >> as humans with arms and legs. This can take a millennium, and that >> bacteria, (which becomes quantum at low temperature) will expand in the >> arms of the Milky way. >> > > You say that everything will be normal, we'll be human with arms and legs, > then you say something highly psychedelic :) > > >> >> >> >> >> >>> Nice to see buddhism and taoism there, but where is (strong) >>> atheism/materialism? Hmm.... :) >>> >> >> The graph says v1.1, so maybe you can issue a bug report :) >> Where would you say it branches from, in that tree? >> >> >> I would say from the greeks, and then in some growing percentage of the >> abramanic religions. (But it certainly occurs also elsewhere, like notably >> in some branch of Hinduism and Buddhism). >> >> Platonism is not dead, just dormant, in basically all religions (if not >> in all brain or universal numbers). >> >> We will get virtual, but that is relative, and from the absolute view we >> already are (assuming mechanism). >> > > Sure, "virtual" is like "natural", I'm not sure it means anything. > > >> >> In the arithmetical reality there are two kinds of place we can access, >> those where we keep our memories, and those where we don't. Both are >> infinite in numbers, but have different relative measure. >> Apparently (salvia reports) we can abandon all memories, and then >> retrieve them. How can we be sure we retrieve the correct one? >> > > Doesn't this problem already arise without salvia? I remember having this > type of doubt as a kid, along with are doubts like "Is stuff conscious?". > Adults told me that these hypothesis were absurd. Adults still tell me > that, but I'm less and less convinced... > telmo, would it be ok to clarify the relation t matter you don't see for consciousness? Do you mean you don't see as true he hypothesis that matter is conscious ? Or you don't see that the physical bring produces consciousness?
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