Accordingto Deutsch, MWI is falsifiable, with some actions of a quantum computer. These would be the heavy hitters of QC, and not the lab toys we have today, but we'd potentially have access to electrons in parallel cosmii.
Bruno's principal argument for comp is that it predicts MWI. Yet MWI itself is not falsifiable or testable. -----Original Message----- From: Richard Ruquist <[email protected]> To: everything-list <[email protected]> Sent: Sat, May 17, 2014 11:41 pm Subject: Re: Is Consciousness Computable? Hibbs, I do not often share your opinion, but in this instance I do. It seems to me that Bruno's principal argument for comp is that it predicts MWI. Yet MWI itself is not falsifiable or testable. And I think MWI fails the measure problem despite the Gleason Theorem. I think it is a mistake for Bruno to connect comp to MWI. Comp like string theory is so rich in results that I suggest that it could as well predict a single world. However, I do appreciate Bruno's intellect and humility, a rare combination. Richard On Sat, May 17, 2014 at 10:47 PM, <[email protected]> wrote: On Thursday, May 15, 2014 7:48:26 AM UTC+1, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 May 2014, at 22:44, [email protected] wrote: On Wednesday, May 14, 2014 7:31:17 PM UTC+1, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 14 May 2014, at 03:29, meekerdb wrote: On 5/13/2014 6:11 PM, LizR wrote: On 14 May 2014 11:15, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: On 5/13/2014 4:06 PM, LizR wrote: On 14 May 2014 06:29, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote: On 5/12/2014 9:40 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Turing *emulation* is only meaningful in the context of emulating one part relative to another part that is not emulated, i.e. is "real". If you say so. We can still listen to the machine, and compare with nature. When we compare with nature we find that some things exist and some don't. Like other worlds don't exist, or atoms don't exist ... the question about what exists hasn't been answered yet. Or indeed the question about what it means for something to exist. So is it your view that no matter what comp predicts it's not falsified because it may be true somewhere else? I find it hard to read that into what I wrote. (Unless "no matter what comp predicts" is a slightly awkward, but potentially rather funny, pun?) But anyway, no that isn't my view. Either comp is true or it isn't, which is to say, either consciousness is Turing emulable at some level, or it isn't. And if it is, either there is some flaw in what Bruno derives from that assumption, or there isn't. But the question is about how to test comp. Bruno has offered that we should compare its predictions to observed physics. My view is that this requires predictions about what happens here and now, where some things happen and some don't. "Predictions" that something happens somewhere in the multiverse don't satisfy my idea of testable. But comp do prediction right now. At first sight it predicts white noise and white rabbits, but then we listen to the machines views on this, and the simplest pass from provability to probability (the local erasing of the cul-de-sac worlds) gives a quantization of the arithmetical sigma_1 proposition. A good chance that arithmetic provided some quantum erazing, or destructive interference in the observations. To me, Gleason theorem somehow solve the measure problem for the quantum theory, but we have only some promise that it will be so for comp, as it needs to if comp is true. My point is that if you say yes to the doctor, and believe in peano Arithmetic, that concerns you. It is a problem. We have to find the equivalent of Gleason theorem in arithmetic, for the arithmetical quantum logics. I submit a problem, and I provided a testable part. The quantum propositional tautologies. Bruno So it looks like it isn't just me that doesn't understand your story of testability. So may I do a little test here. Can anyone here, other than Bruno, explain this paragraph in terms of realizable falsiibility and attest to that? "By looking to our neighborhood close enough to see if the physics match well a sum on infinities of computations. If comp is true, we will learn nothing, and can't conclude that comp has been proved, but if there is a difference, then we can know that comp is refuted (well, comp + the classical theory of knowledge)." How does the end part "well, comp + the classical theory of knowledge" change the commitment to falsification? Good question. I let other answer, but frankly, it is just a matter of *studying* the papers. Note that in some presentation, I take the classical theory (or definition) of knowledge granted, but in other presentation, I explain and answer your question with some detail, and it is the object of the thesis. More on this, and you can ask the question to me. The point is in focus, not the success of my pedagogy on this list. Bruno I think you're confused where your theory ends and scientific standards, conventions, definitions begin. The arguments and explanations you lay out in your theory, may certainly arrive at various conclusions for the implications comp has for the world. And I'm quite sure within that you offer your explanation for the falsifiability of comp. But you're getting ahead of yourself dramatically Bruno, if you think the details of your argument is an influential factor in settling the matter of falsifiability. What you profess within your theory is irrelevant...on this encapsulating turf. In fact from memory you've made about 4 arguments at various times. In at least one of your papers you offer this...little package of philosophical reasoning, which 5 lines and 30 seconds later concludes your work is falsifiable so scientific. I mentioned at the time the same argument can be formulated for all philosophy...and probably religion and everything else. Then you insisted your theory is falsifiable because its fundamental position requires huge accomplishments, like deriving physics. So I mentioned the same argument is applicable to any and all ToE, by definition. Which is obviously true...but you reacted angrily, apparently denying you ever constructed such an argument. It would be very easy to guide you to where you said it...repeatedly...and to my protests. Just as it would have been easy to demonstrate multiple occasions on which you claimed computations are intrinsically conscious, and the other events too. The reason I haven't is intellectual respect and a wish to accept any clarification or edit as the right version if you say it is. I've gone out of my way to do this...but the plain data accumulated now Bruno, is that you're confused what the meaning of falsifiability actually is. Your angry rebuff concluded in making me responsible for 'not getting it'....before yet another 'clarification' that your theory simply leaves 'no choice'...and it's this property of contraining to block all paths but the one, that delivers the scientific standard. But you've moved past that in the few posts since, and now the reason your theory is falsifiable is because we can look to the local physicals, and compare that with taking a summation of an infinite multiverse of possible computations. Apparently, if there is a 'difference' comp is falsified. Well...not quite....comp + classical natural law is falsified. There is nothing - no part - of this formulation...or any of the other more careful attempts that I have seen, that even begins to exhibit the properties of testability. But what's really telling is that you describe a sort of, process....a sequence of steps.....apparently with a falsification as one possible outcome. So...you define falsifiability as a process....a process within the arguments of your theory. Each step of the process, your theory has not even begun to approach actually resolving...or even the basic thinking of what such a resolution would look like. A summation of an infinity of multiverses of all possible computations? And who or what decides when the infinite set is all accounted for? Could it be we'll have to rely on the arguments within your theory for that? Could it also be your theory currently has no better insight of what it even means than I do...not that can be independently verified or tested. So let's recap Bruno...your theory will one day tell us what the summation of infinities comes to....and presumably also the correct formulation of the 'local neighbourhood' for a 1:1 comparison. So your theory will - oneday - perform this calculation.....and so your theory will assess the results....and then your theory will announce whether it is falsified or not. You can surely see that this is a self-referring mess. And do you know why it's like this? It's because you are trying to define falsifiability within your theory and tell the world a new definition based on a process of far-future sequenced events. Oh sure, I'm the only one that seems to care about this here in this little goldfish bowl. People here....they like you....they enjoy your theory.......appreciate what they perceive as your patience and willingness to engage any person. Listen....I like many of your qualities too. My intuition with the fullness of time, is that you've seriously wasted my time by engaging with me about the items important to me.....it's very clear at no time have you been willing to re-evaluate your envisionings of falsification, and confront the very obvious serious questions. So you've wasted my time.......and fooled yourself the fact no one else here in this tiny group feels any need to haul you over for any claims you make.....and largely don't really care that much about the old fashioned falsifiability thing......all rather passé in the infinite infinities of infinities of everything infinitely explained. Sorry...below the belt...no grievance and so on. So anyway, they let you get away with murder Bruno, and you fool yourself this is reflects the norm. My questions and concerns are the norm mate. I know you'll be coming back saying you don't know what I'm talking about, and you'll restate your theory is testable...and you'll get away with it because no one holds you to account for things like this. But the lone position from me....and as it happens the vast majority of serious scientists I should think, is that you don't begin to understand the nature and distinctiveness of falsifiability, so I'll leave you with a refresher: 1) A precise, non-trivial prediction is fundamental, that tells us something NEW about physical law....that is to say, goes over and above offering some new *explanation* of exactly what we already know. This is the fundamental substance of testability, and falsifiability. This Bruno, you never accomplish. You never produce a single non-trivial prediction from all your work. It does not count to say, you predict your theory will do great things...it does not count to then argue that if it doesn't do those great things that would be a falsification. It does not add any value at all to exchange a prediction for a process of far future steps. The theorist has no say how his prediction is tested...he's as welcome as the next person to make a helpful suggestion.....but the whole end to end process of testing/observing, is complete outside the theory and the whimsical arguments of the theorist. And this separation is fundamental. This is what it's all about. So you do not have a testable, falsifiable, theory Bruno. Not in the scientific sense. No one calls you on this.....here.....but then again.....let's face it no one answered my question either. But other there....all you'll accomplish with this hubris is to be ignored and written off. Which you probably are, by and large. And...I wanted to add value for you....for my part I would actually question the way your friends write you a pass about this, because this is one tiny goldfish bowl dude. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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