On 10 Jun 2014, at 20:52, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
No, no! Have a coffee with a physical anthropologist, and ask him/
her about revenge in primates, both great apes and monkeys. They
will inform this conversation, and get you to see how the great ape
called human, and the other primates behave in similar ways for
similar apparent reasons.
This seems to imply revenge might exist in apes. That might depend
which one. Bonobo: no. Chimpanzee perhaps.
You should write a new book on Lobian machines and gods and identify
who they are and what they do? Are they hypotheticals, that dwell
inside a mathematical set? Are they conscious, and would you like to
interview a Lobian machine/god/personality.
I have written three books on this and send thousand of posts. Yes the
löbian machines are real (not more hypothetical than 0, 1, 2, ...),
you can prove their existence in arithmetic. The best known are the
classical "rich" theories, like PA and ZF. They are immaterial, but as
real as the primes numbers, and their stories are real too. We are
Löbian, in some sense, but not when using natural languages or doing
informal mathematics, where we use our first person hypostases (which
is not Löbian). Löbian machines or numbers are just universal machine
knowing that they are universal. They are born enlightened somehow.
the mystery is not their existence, but why they fall and forget who
they are (and create the physical universes through that process). All
universal machine are conscious (but disconnected or dissociate from
our reality). the Löbian machine are more than conscious, they are
self-conscious, which means conscious like you or me, but the one on
this planets are still dissociated from reality too, except through
the Löbian humans and animals. I tend to think that Löbianity begun
with the higher invertebrates, like octopus, cuttlefishes and some
spiders. But they have not enough neurons to exploit that as fully as
humans, and that might be their luck.
Bruno
Oooooh... That looks like a human belief.
I am afraid that the justice problem haunts many Löbian machines and
Löbian gods (Non Turing effective set of beliefs, or numbers).
-----Original Message-----
From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Tue, Jun 10, 2014 12:36 pm
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
On 09 Jun 2014, at 19:13, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Ok good point
Justice and revenge are human inventions
Oooooh... That looks like a human belief.
I am afraid that the justice problem haunts many Löbian machines and
Löbian gods (Non Turing effective set of beliefs, or numbers).
I am sure there are zoologists and anthropologists, who would have
oodles of observed behavior for the former. Justice is rarely
objective, however better tech may render our species better
choices. This is an optimistic guess.
Justice is when the laws are applied equally to all citizens.
If a law is unapplicable or unjust, well you can still write a book
and suggest changing a law.
Justice, like truth are ideal concepts, or guiding concepts. Pain
also, in teaching us what to avoid, it can guide to what is better.
Justice is not necessarily about punishment or revenge, but of
restauring trust in the references.
If you are raped by the local priest regularly since some times,
justice is already there a little bit when it stops.
Like in the health, we have only that: harm reduction. Tiny
improvements. Of course when bandits take or influence powers, "harm
reduction" is presented as tolerance which is not well seen those
days.
Bruno
-----Original Message-----
From: LizR <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Sun, Jun 8, 2014 7:53 pm
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
On 9 June 2014 11:22, spudboy100 via Everything List <[email protected]
> wrote:
Back to the death penalty. Its hard for me to determine what
disuades people from murdering, if anything.
For most people you don't need to dissuade them, except in extreme
situations, imho. For psychopaths and normal people in extreme
situations, I imagine it's the prospect of getting caught and
punished (and no doubt the religious idea that they will inevitably
be punished, possibly for eternity, helps). Plus the natural desire
not to kill people (see previous posts on the difficulties armies
have getting soldiers to kill people).
Is there such a thing as just revenge?
Justice and revenge are human inventions, so the question is
context dependent. All one can say is that neither of these appear
to exist naturally, except insofar as humans have created them, but
that they both arise from tendencies with, I'm sure, genetic and
social underpinnings. (So some animals exhibit them too, I imagine.)
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