Thanks. Professor. I will attempt to learn a bit more about the Lobian machines and get back with you.
On 10 Jun 2014, at 20:52, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote: No, no! Have a coffee with a physical anthropologist, and ask him/her about revenge in primates, both great apes and monkeys. They will inform this conversation, and get you to see how the great ape called human, and the other primates behave in similar ways for similar apparent reasons. This seems to imply revenge might exist in apes. That might depend which one. Bonobo: no. Chimpanzee perhaps. You should write a new book on Lobian machines and gods and identify who they are and what they do? Are they hypotheticals, that dwell inside a mathematical set? Are they conscious, and would you like to interview a Lobian machine/god/personality. I have written three books on this and send thousand of posts. Yes the löbian machines are real (not more hypothetical than 0, 1, 2, ...), you can prove their existence in arithmetic. The best known are the classical "rich" theories, like PA and ZF. They are immaterial, but as real as the primes numbers, and their stories are real too. We are Löbian, in some sense, but not when using natural languages or doing informal mathematics, where we use our first person hypostases (which is not Löbian). Löbian machines or numbers are just universal machine knowing that they are universal. They are born enlightened somehow. the mystery is not their existence, but why they fall and forget who they are (and create the physical universes through that process). All universal machine are conscious (but disconnected or dissociate from our reality). the Löbian machine are more than conscious, they are self-conscious, which means conscious like you or me, but the one on this planets are still dissociated from reality too, except through the Löbian humans and animals. I tend to think that Löbianity begun with the higher invertebrates, like octopus, cuttlefishes and some spiders. But they have not enough neurons to exploit that as fully as humans, and that might be their luck. Bruno -----Original Message----- From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> To: everything-list <[email protected]> Sent: Wed, Jun 11, 2014 3:53 am Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! On 10 Jun 2014, at 20:52, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote: No, no! Have a coffee with a physical anthropologist, and ask him/her about revenge in primates, both great apes and monkeys. They will inform this conversation, and get you to see how the great ape called human, and the other primates behave in similar ways for similar apparent reasons. This seems to imply revenge might exist in apes. That might depend which one. Bonobo: no. Chimpanzee perhaps. You should write a new book on Lobian machines and gods and identify who they are and what they do? Are they hypotheticals, that dwell inside a mathematical set? Are they conscious, and would you like to interview a Lobian machine/god/personality. I have written three books on this and send thousand of posts. Yes the löbian machines are real (not more hypothetical than 0, 1, 2, ...), you can prove their existence in arithmetic. The best known are the classical "rich" theories, like PA and ZF. They are immaterial, but as real as the primes numbers, and their stories are real too. We are Löbian, in some sense, but not when using natural languages or doing informal mathematics, where we use our first person hypostases (which is not Löbian). Löbian machines or numbers are just universal machine knowing that they are universal. They are born enlightened somehow. the mystery is not their existence, but why they fall and forget who they are (and create the physical universes through that process). All universal machine are conscious (but disconnected or dissociate from our reality). the Löbian machine are more than conscious, they are self-conscious, which means conscious like you or me, but the one on this planets are still dissociated from reality too, except through the Löbian humans and animals. I tend to think that Löbianity begun with the higher invertebrates, like octopus, cuttlefishes and some spiders. But they have not enough neurons to exploit that as fully as humans, and that might be their luck. Bruno Oooooh... That looks like a human belief. I am afraid that the justice problem haunts many Löbian machines and Löbian gods (Non Turing effective set of beliefs, or numbers). -----Original Message----- From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> To: everything-list <[email protected]> Sent: Tue, Jun 10, 2014 12:36 pm Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! On 09 Jun 2014, at 19:13, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote: Ok good point Justice and revenge are human inventions Oooooh... That looks like a human belief. I am afraid that the justice problem haunts many Löbian machines and Löbian gods (Non Turing effective set of beliefs, or numbers). I am sure there are zoologists and anthropologists, who would have oodles of observed behavior for the former. Justice is rarely objective, however better tech may render our species better choices. This is an optimistic guess. Justice is when the laws are applied equally to all citizens. If a law is unapplicable or unjust, well you can still write a book and suggest changing a law. Justice, like truth are ideal concepts, or guiding concepts. Pain also, in teaching us what to avoid, it can guide to what is better. Justice is not necessarily about punishment or revenge, but of restauring trust in the references. If you are raped by the local priest regularly since some times, justice is already there a little bit when it stops. Like in the health, we have only that: harm reduction. Tiny improvements. Of course when bandits take or influence powers, "harm reduction" is presented as tolerance which is not well seen those days. Bruno -----Original Message----- From: LizR <[email protected]> To: everything-list <[email protected]> Sent: Sun, Jun 8, 2014 7:53 pm Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back! On 9 June 2014 11:22, spudboy100 via Everything List <[email protected]> wrote: Back to the death penalty. Its hard for me to determine what disuades people from murdering, if anything. For most people you don't need to dissuade them, except in extreme situations, imho. For psychopaths and normal people in extreme situations, I imagine it's the prospect of getting caught and punished (and no doubt the religious idea that they will inevitably be punished, possibly for eternity, helps). Plus the natural desire not to kill people (see previous posts on the difficulties armies have getting soldiers to kill people). Is there such a thing as just revenge? Justice and revenge are human inventions, so the question is context dependent. All one can say is that neither of these appear to exist naturally, except insofar as humans have created them, but that they both arise from tendencies with, I'm sure, genetic and social underpinnings. (So some animals exhibit them too, I imagine.) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
