The blasphemy problem concerning religious text that was brought up by Bruno in this thread, is present in Christianity/bible. What I have difficulty understanding is how people who know that their God has irreducible attributes that we cannot begin to comprehend, stick so close to a text, that "uses God's name in vain" by telling us how to comprehend the world, the role of humans, and God. A text about God itself violates the greatness of its own god (if god were something we can comprehend, we can write about god... if not, why not remain silent and do the work?).
The only theologians that I respect therefore, are the ones that tend to be not overly literal: they read other books, the books of the "competition", even listen to the devil if that principle presents itself... if only to keep the pledge that one does not perceive any book or voice to be the "book of answers", and in so doing blaspheme one's god in personal vanity, advertising them in vulgar fashion everywhere, and therefore pretend to know what we cannot. I can therefore relate to preference therefore of old mystics, shamans, negative theologies like Neo-Platonists, Buddhists etc, because they have this safety switch, that prevents using some interpretation of God, as weapon against others and to cause pain in "good clothing". My question to you Samiya: How does Quran meet this problem? Does it meet the problem of overly literal interpretation, and all the pain that can cause? PGC On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 7:25 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> wrote: > Dear John, > According to what I read in the Quran and my understanding of it, all of > us humans, men and women, are in pledge for our beliefs and our deeds > (Quran 52:21), and will benefit from our truthfulness (Quran 5:119). We are > all being tested, and all those who pass this terrestrial exam and get > accepted in Heaven, will find their reward, far above and beyond their > expectations and imagination (Quran 32:17), awaiting them! God is keeping > an accurate account of all thoughts and deeds, and the record doesn't leave > out a single thing (Quran 18:49). > In Quran, 66:10-12, God gives the example of four women: two who > disbelieved (the wife of Noah and and wife of Lot) who will not be able to > enter Heaven in spite of having been married to righteous persons in this > world, and God gives the example of two believing women (Aasiya, the queen > of Pharoah, and Maryam, the daughter of Imran / mother of Jesus) who will > enter Heaven because of their righteousness. > While many verses speak of fair and just reward for all believing men and > women, 'huris' are mentioned in only four of the 6000+ verses of the Quran. > Mostly 'huris' are understood to be females, but I'm not too sure about > that, as the word itself is neuter gender in Arabic. Whether we humans will > retain our genders or not in Heaven and if there will be sex / procreation > in Heaven is also subject to speculation. Honestly, I don't know, but I > trust that all those who are accepted in Heaven, will be in a perfect state > of joy, comfort, happiness and pleasure. When I dwell upon the various > verses of the Quran giving a preview of Heaven, I think the human soul's > yearning for the perfect person, its soulmate, will be fulfilled. > As regards the terrestrial portion of your question, men and women are but > two types of humans, one of whom is responsible for the financial and > security needs of the family (the man), while the other (the woman) has the > domestic responsibility. In many ways, women enjoy a privileged position. I > attempted to answer a similar question some years ago, you may wish to read > this: > http://islam-qna.blogspot.com/2008/11/to-be-or-not-to-be-equal-comments-on.html > > I hope I've answered your main question. Please feel free to ask further. > Reproduced below are few relevant verses: > 5:119 Allah will say, "This is the Day when the truthful will benefit from > their truthfulness." For them are gardens [in Paradise] beneath which > rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with > them, and they with Him. That is the great attainment. [Translator: Sahih > International] > 6:32 And the worldly life is not but amusement and diversion; but the home > of the Hereafter is best for those who fear Allah , so will you not reason? > [Translator: Sahih International] > 9:71 The believing men and believing women are allies of one another. They > enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and establish prayer and give > zakah and obey Allah and His Messenger. Those - Allah will have mercy upon > them. Indeed, Allah is Exalted in Might and Wise. [Translator: Sahih > International] > 18:49 And the record [of deeds] will be placed [open], and you will see > the criminals fearful of that within it, and they will say, "Oh, woe to us! > What is this book that leaves nothing small or great except that it has > enumerated it?" And they will find what they did present [before them]. And > your Lord does injustice to no one. [Translator: Sahih International] > 24:26 Vile women are for vile men, and vile men for vile women. Good women > are for good men, and good men for good women; such are innocent of that > which people say: For them is pardon and a bountiful provision. > [Translator: Pickthall] > 32:17 And no soul knows what has been hidden for them of comfort for eyes > as reward for what they used to do. [Translator: Sahih International] > 33:35 Indeed, the Muslim men and Muslim women, the believing men and > believing women, the obedient men and obedient women, the truthful men and > truthful women, the patient men and patient women, the humble men and > humble women, the charitable men and charitable women, the fasting men and > fasting women, the men who guard their private parts and the women who do > so, and the men who remember Allah often and the women who do so - for them > Allah has prepared forgiveness and a great reward. [Translator: Sahih > International] > 33:58 And those who harm believing men and believing women for [something] > other than what they have earned have certainly born upon themselves a > slander and manifest sin. [Translator: Sahih International] > 47:19 Know thou therefore that there is no god but God, and ask > forgiveness for thy sin, and for the believers, men and women. God knows > your going to and fro, and your lodging. [Translator: Arberry] > 52:21 And those who believed, and their seed followed them in belief, We > shall join their seed with them, and We shall not defraud them of aught of > their work; every man shall be pledged for what he earned. [Translator: > Arberry] > 57:18 Indeed, the men who practice charity and the women who practice > charity and [they who] have loaned Allah a goodly loan - it will be > multiplied for them, and they will have a noble reward. [Translator: Sahih > International] > > The 4 verses about Houris / Hoors > 44:54 Thus (shall it be), and We will wed them with Houris pure, > beautiful ones. [Translator: Shakir] > 52:20 Reclining on ranged couches. And we wed them unto fair ones with > wide, lovely eyes. [Translator: Pickthall] > 55:72 Fair ones, close-guarded in pavilions - [Translator: Pickthall] > 56:22 And (there will be) Companions with beautiful, big, and lustrous > eyes,- [Translator: Yusuf Ali] > > Samiya > > > On Sun, Jun 22, 2014 at 1:09 AM, John Mikes <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Dear Samiya: >> I was raised a 'believer' and studied several religions to end up as a >> "scientific agnostic" who does not know the 'why'-s and 'how'-s but asks >> questions about items other people believe in. >> Many yeas ago on a different list I engaged in a discussion when an irate >> 'believer' bursted out: "who gave you the audacity to feel so much >> 'smarter' than the rest of us?" so now I keep my mouth shut. - As far as I >> can (??). Then again on another kind of list I asked a female Muslim US >> professor about Huris and what happens to human females after death? the >> answer was: it is not so simple. Nothing more. >> >> Do you have a solution to (human) women whether they go straight to hell, >> or to heaven? What happens to them THERE(?) ? >> >> The other day I heard a cute solution for nonbelievers on TV (it was a >> stupid soap opera): a priest said to a nonbeliever: God offers solace to >> the universe for those who believe. Why to the universe? otherwise it is >> OK. >> >> I do not bother you with more of my questions but am interested in the >> solution for the womenfolk (both terresstrial and afterwordian). >> >> Best regards >> >> John Mikes >> >> >> On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 4:17 AM, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >> wrote: >> >>> Bruno, >>> Thanks for the advise! I never intended to be not humble or not modest, >>> but perhaps I've not been very clear in expressing myself and my beliefs. >>> When I speak of faith being God's gift, it doesn't mean necessarily being a >>> Muslim. In Quran, 2:62, we read: 'Lo! Those who believe (in that which is >>> revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and >>> Sabaeans - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - >>> surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon >>> them neither shall they grieve.' [Translator: Pickthall] >>> I don't know if you wish to have a discussion, hence I'm not responding >>> to rest of the email. If there is any specific point that you would like me >>> to answer, please feel free to ask. I will try to answer as lucidly as >>> possible. >>> Many people have posted their opinions and comments about the way they >>> perceive Islam from the outside. I suppose there is too much fear and >>> disgust, and till those emotions are not allayed, they will not be willing >>> to consider or discuss faith on its own merit, or wonder why we still >>> maintain that God is loving and kind. However, since nobody is asking these >>> questions, I am not responding, lest they think I'm preaching my religion. >>> Also, there have been very few questions about the scientific clues we >>> find in the Quran. I assume that largely people are not interested in >>> looking at the text of the scripture or evaluating it for factual accuracy. >>> That's fine. We have a free-will and its each individual's own choice. As >>> Quran 2:186 reads: 'When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed >>> close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every suppliant when he calleth >>> on Me: Let them also, *with a will*, Listen to My call, and believe in >>> Me: That they may walk in the right way.' [Translator: Yusuf Ali] >>> Samiya >>> >>> >>> >>> On Sat, Jun 21, 2014 at 2:11 AM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 29 May 2014, at 05:33, Samiya Illias wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 28-May-2014, at 10:12 pm, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Ok, so let's talk some specifics. >>>> >>>> Islamists issued death sentences on people for artistic expression. >>>> Famously on Salman Rushdie for writing a book, and several people for >>>> drawing Mohammed. When I was living in Paris, the building of a small >>>> publication was bombed for publishing a drawing of Mohammed. >>>> >>>> >>>> The Quran advises us (6:68,69) to remove ourselves from the company of >>>> those who blaspheme, till they do not change to another topic. It does not >>>> prescribe any of the above forms of punishment. >>>> >>>> >>>> OK. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Women in Islamic societies are frequently punished for being raped, >>>> their husbands are allowed to beat them (against their will, I have nothing >>>> against consensual BDSM), they are sentenced to stoning to death for >>>> adultery (even when they were raped), they have to dress in a certain way >>>> and can be publicly lashed for not doing so and they are prevented from >>>> going to school. Even recently, young girls were attacked for attending >>>> school. >>>> >>>> The Quran prescribes (24:1-14) 100 public lashes for adulterers >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Is that not a blaspheme? Using the 'Name' as authority in the temporal >>>> moral code realm. >>>> >>>> If two person decide to live together and promise to God maintaining >>>> fidelity, say for 500 years, and one betrayed the other, it is only the >>>> other, and God which have to handle this. Not the friends, not the family, >>>> not the Government. Just each others, the person involved, and, if they >>>> need, the helps of shamans and wise or spiritual persons. >>>> >>>> I don't think that any humans or group of humans, can intentionally >>>> harm other humans without consent (with rare exception like the legitimate >>>> defense). >>>> >>>> The problem comes only from the literalist interpretation. >>>> >>>> We can vote for laws, and nobody should forbid you to consult sacred >>>> books or God, if you can, or divine subaltern in Heaven (in case you found >>>> a two way shortcut) before voting, but the laws should not refer to It, and >>>> I think cannot, refer to It without blaspheming. >>>> >>>> A famous another example of such blaspheme. is Genghis Khan's statement >>>> ""I am the punishment of God. If you had not committed great sins, God >>>> would not have sent a punishment like me upon you." >>>> >>>> The good guy get a sadist impulse? He believes in God, so he take it as >>>> a sign that he has a right to hurt someone, as his divine pleasure assures >>>> him that its victim has necessarily committed great sin, that God allows a >>>> good fellow like him/her to torture. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> (not rape victim); for that 4 witnesses of the crime are required, and >>>> if the witnesses are found to be lying, then 80 lashes for the persons who >>>> give false witness, and they are to be banned from bearing witness in any >>>> other case. >>>> >>>> Regarding beating by husbands, you refer to 4:15. I think the >>>> interpretation of the word d-r-b is incorrect, and it is separation which >>>> is advised, not beating. However, most translators and scholars insist it >>>> means beating. I disagree. >>>> >>>> >>>> I am glad you disagree, and I appreciate that honest statement. >>>> >>>> In the comp 'fairy tale", it is said that if you kill all the humans >>>> for your own pleasure, well, you have still some chance to go to heaven, >>>> but if you hurt a fly's leg and justify the act with the name of the >>>> unnameable, there is much less hope. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Quran advises (24:31) women the covering of their bosoms with scarf; >>>> head covering is not explicitly stated but it's traditional in almost all >>>> religions. Mother Mary's statues all show her head covered. Muslims did not >>>> make those statues. Also, till about a century ago, almost all people, men >>>> and women, used to wear some sort of headgear, in most cultures. >>>> The Quran also advises (33:59) draping a cloak over the body, when >>>> going out, if one fears for her safety. Is that good advise? >>>> >>>> Homosexuality is considered a crime. >>>> >>>> Yes, the people of Sodom received divine punished for it. Verse 4:16 >>>> contains guidance for how to deal with this crime. >>>> >>>> >>>> See above. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Limb amputation is considered an acceptable punishment. >>>> >>>> Quran (5:38) prescribes cutting off the hand of the thief. I believe it >>>> is implemented in Saudi Arabia where theft incidences are very low. >>>> However, I have heard scholars argue that such laws can only be implemented >>>> in an ideal Islamic welfare society where excuses / rationale for theft are >>>> almost non-existent, and thereby stealing is a pure crime, not borne of any >>>> need for survival. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> So, my question to you is this: do you condemn these actions? If so, do >>>> you claim that they stem from a misunderstanding of the Quran? >>>> >>>> >>>> I am a Muslim. I believe the Quran to be divine guidance. Therefore, I >>>> accept everything in it, and try to understand the best meaning thereof. >>>> >>>> >>>> It is hidden, it can't be literal. (provably so assuming comp + some >>>> "simple definition", and even in comp the G/G* theory cannot be taken >>>> literally. >>>> >>>> Humans can be very influenced by their education. Imagine that at the >>>> age of two month you would have been raised by christians, or by atheists, >>>> or think about any existing religion, do you think you would have been >>>> Muslim? >>>> >>>> The real sacred book is in your heart, it makes you "invariant" for the >>>> sacred texts. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> However, on this forum, I only invite you all to benefit from the >>>> factual accuracy of the Quran in your efforts to understand the world of >>>> science. I am not asking anyone to become a Muslim. Faith, we believe, is >>>> God's gift to the willing heart. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> You talk like if the Muslims have the monopoly of faith. >>>> >>>> It is a bit like telling us that you found the truth, and that the >>>> non-muslims are erring. >>>> >>>> You might introduced a non needed dichotomy. >>>> >>>> If you want do science, I am afraid you need to train yourself in much >>>> more doubt and modesty. >>>> >>>> Only the gigantic doubt can reveal the most certain part of reality, >>>> and deepen the faith, by notably making it more independent from the human >>>> words, images and stories. >>>> >>>> Bruno >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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