________________________________
From: Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Sent: Friday, June 20, 2014 2:11 PM
Subject: Re: Pluto bounces back!
On 29 May 2014, at 05:33, Samiya Illias wrote:
>
>
>On 28-May-2014, at 10:12 pm, Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>Ok, so let's talk some specifics.
>>
>>
>>Islamists issued death sentences on people for artistic expression. Famously
>>on Salman Rushdie for writing a book, and several people for drawing
>>Mohammed. When I was living in Paris, the building of a small publication was
>>bombed for publishing a drawing of Mohammed.
>The Quran advises us (6:68,69) to remove ourselves from the company of those
>who blaspheme, till they do not change to another topic. It does not prescribe
>any of the above forms of punishment.
OK.
>
>
>>
>>Women in Islamic societies are frequently punished for being raped, their
>>husbands are allowed to beat them (against their will, I have nothing against
>>consensual BDSM), they are sentenced to stoning to death for adultery (even
>>when they were raped), they have to dress in a certain way and can be
>>publicly lashed for not doing so and they are prevented from going to school.
>>Even recently, young girls were attacked for attending school.
>>
>>The Quran prescribes (24:1-14) 100 public lashes for adulterers
Is that not a blaspheme? Using the 'Name' as authority in the temporal moral
code realm.
If two person decide to live together and promise to God maintaining fidelity,
say for 500 years, and one betrayed the other, it is only the other, and God
which have to handle this. Not the friends, not the family, not the Government.
Just each others, the person involved, and, if they need, the helps of shamans
and wise or spiritual persons.
I don't think that any humans or group of humans, can intentionally harm other
humans without consent (with rare exception like the legitimate defense).
The problem comes only from the literalist interpretation.
We can vote for laws, and nobody should forbid you to consult sacred books or
God, if you can, or divine subaltern in Heaven (in case you found a two way
shortcut) before voting, but the laws should not refer to It, and I think
cannot, refer to It without blaspheming.
A famous another example of such blaspheme. is Genghis Khan's statement ""I am
the punishment of God. If you had not committed great sins, God would not have
sent a punishment like me upon you."
The good guy get a sadist impulse? He believes in God, so he take it as a sign
that he has a right to hurt someone, as his divine pleasure assures him that
its victim has necessarily committed great sin, that God allows a good fellow
like him/her to torture.
(not rape victim); for that 4 witnesses of the crime are required, and if the
witnesses are found to be lying, then 80 lashes for the persons who give false
witness, and they are to be banned from bearing witness in any other case.
>
>
>Regarding beating by husbands, you refer to 4:15. I think the interpretation
>of the word d-r-b is incorrect, and it is separation which is advised, not
>beating. However, most translators and scholars insist it means beating. I
>disagree.
I am glad you disagree, and I appreciate that honest statement.
In the comp 'fairy tale", it is said that if you kill all the humans for your
own pleasure, well, you have still some chance to go to heaven, but if you hurt
a fly's leg and justify the act with the name of the unnameable, there is much
less hope.
>
>Quran advises (24:31) women the covering of their bosoms with scarf; head
>covering is not explicitly stated but it's traditional in almost all
>religions. Mother Mary's statues all show her head covered. Muslims did not
>make those statues. Also, till about a century ago, almost all people, men and
>women, used to wear some sort of headgear, in most cultures.
>The Quran also advises (33:59) draping a cloak over the body, when going out,
>if one fears for her safety. Is that good advise?
>
>
>Homosexuality is considered a crime.
>>
>>Yes, the people of Sodom received divine punished for it. Verse 4:16 contains
>>guidance for how to deal with this crime.
See above.
>
>Limb amputation is considered an acceptable punishment.
>>
>>Quran (5:38) prescribes cutting off the hand of the thief. I believe it is
>>implemented in Saudi Arabia where theft incidences are very low. However, I
>>have heard scholars argue that such laws can only be implemented in an ideal
>>Islamic welfare society where excuses / rationale for theft are almost
>>non-existent, and thereby stealing is a pure crime, not borne of any need for
>>survival.
>
>So, my question to you is this: do you condemn these actions? If so, do you
>claim that they stem from a misunderstanding of the Quran?
>
>I am a Muslim. I believe the Quran to be divine guidance. Therefore, I accept
>everything in it, and try to understand the best meaning thereof.
It is hidden, it can't be literal. (provably so assuming comp + some "simple
definition", and even in comp the G/G* theory cannot be taken literally.
Humans can be very influenced by their education. Imagine that at the age of
two month you would have been raised by christians, or by atheists, or think
about any existing religion, do you think you would have been Muslim?
The real sacred book is in your heart, it makes you "invariant" for the sacred
texts.
However, on this forum, I only invite you all to benefit from the factual
accuracy of the Quran in your efforts to understand the world of science. I am
not asking anyone to become a Muslim. Faith, we believe, is God's gift to the
willing heart.
>
>
You talk like if the Muslims have the monopoly of faith.
It is a bit like telling us that you found the truth, and that the non-muslims
are erring.
You might introduced a non needed dichotomy.
If you want do science, I am afraid you need to train yourself in much more
doubt and modesty.
Only the gigantic doubt can reveal the most certain part of reality, and deepen
the faith, by notably making it more independent from the human words, images
and stories.
Bruno
Well said -- IMO. Without a lifetime of doubting and questioning; without
experiencing for oneself and discovering for oneself; without humility and a
willingness to adapt and change according to revealed truth... what is faith,
but a prison of the mind that prevents the spirit from ever touching that which
is divine.
Chris
http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/
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