On 05 Jul 2014, at 10:00, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]
] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
Sent: Saturday, July 05, 2014 12:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: Re: Tyson is not atheist (was Re: So, a new kind of non-
boolean, non-digital, computer architecture
On 04 Jul 2014, at 20:43, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
wrote:
From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]
] On Behalf Of Bruno Marchal
On 04 Jul 2014, at 10:36, LizR wrote:
On 4 July 2014 18:16, meekerdb <[email protected]> wrote:
This kind of classification is fine as far as distinguishing
believing god doesn't exist from failing to believe that god does
exist. But it is still ambiguous because it assumes that "God(s)"
is definite. I don't believe that personal agent type gods exist;
but I'm on the fence about some creative principle or unnamable
truths that some people would like to call "God". I believe that
theist (e.g. Abrahamic) gods do not exist.
I comment Brent first, here.
OK. fair enough, but even if the God of the theists does not exist,
he might still have important relationships with the Plotinus ONE,
or even with the notion of arithmetical truth as pointed too by a
machine.
But doesn't "God" imply an Identity, which cannot by its very nature
be all things,
Yes. That is why the neoplatonist will "add" the notion of the
"ONE" ("god") to the Platonist Noùs, which is the "world of ideas" and
represent the "all intelligible things" (justifiable or not).
The "One" has to be "simple" for Plotinus.
I am not sure what makes you think I defined God by "all thing". It
is more the truth about all things. This can be shown to be non
definable, and as such might not have an identity in the sense you
are using that term here.
The point I was trying to make was about the common conception of
God as of some all-powerful, all-knowing deity. Even in faiths that
prohibit, any explicit depiction of God this external identifiable
conceptualized being exists - at least in so far as the believers
are concerned.
Neoplatonists solves that difficulty by justifying that the "being
realm" does not contain neither God (the One), nor matter. God is not
part of what exists, which means "created or emanating from the One".
God "meta-exist" like the arithmetical truth can be shown to be a non
arithmetical notion. Likewize, the set of all sets is not a set in
Cantorian set theory.
If we speak of some formless ineffable truth or force perhaps
existing in all things,
Which "all things"? That is what we are trying to put some light at.
then I agree with your sense of it (and seek to experience moments
of flow of as well), but often, the word symbol God - at least for
me perhaps - conjures up a theist god of one brand or another -
doesn't really matter.
OK. "God" is not a name (in the logician sense of finite 3p
description). It is a substantive use as a nickname to point on what
we are searching (and can, with comp, only be searched, not find in
any 3p ways, which makes "machine's theology" already immune to
normative interpretations.
Of course, in our culture, the god term, without further ado, refers
to fairy tales. That was not the case for the early greek theologians,
despite the (natural?) tendency of some to (re)introduce superstition
and wishful thinking.
because Identity always is - and must be - defined in terms of a
larger set; i.e. good is defined in terms of evil both within some
larger set that encompasses both. The ineffable, indescribable
essence is without Identity.
You might elaborate, as I am not even sure "identity" applies here.
I would say it is not without identity, nor with identity. I suspect
a category error.
Words are symbols, and symbolic meaning can only exist within a
context.
OK. But the "whole" is not a symbol. This is provable even for little
"whole" associated tpo machine. They cannot define by words neither
the whole (the outer 3p god), nor the soul or inner god. Those are non
symbolic entities, which does not admit any symbolic description.
When we give something Identity - even a supreme being we are
implicitly conceptualizing this supreme being within some even
larger context.
Not really. There is no larger context available to the entity who
conceive it. That is why they will be logically not 3p describable by
the entities.
Being needs context in order to be.
The One is supposed to be what generates all possible contexts.
Definition requires contrast.
Exactly. That is why the outer god will not have any "definition".
It is a very hard habit to escape and set aside... our minds are
always defining things for us and we naturally tend to hang some
kind of identity on our various deities.
I would say outside of the identifiable.
Yes. the One is not identifiable. But using a theologically super-
string hypothesis like computationalism, makes it possible to somehow
point on it from inside, without naming or defining it. Consciousness
and arithmetical *truth* (conceive by machines) are like that too.
I think we agree, and have only the usual vocabulary constraint. I did
not have a christian education, nor a jewish one, nor a muslim one,
which might have made me more immune against the identity God = the
Abramanic god, and open to the use of god in its more general
conceptual sense, like with many Platonists, and many mystics.
Bruno
Chris
In all texts, I take what is convincing, and let what I don't
understand for further reflexion.
And here I comment Liz:
OK. Although string theory almost certainly predicts that they exist
somewhere (but not in our corner of the multiverse).
Really? I doubt this. Daemon capable of imitating God might be prove
to exist, in both some QM-GR theory, and in arithmetic, but for God
itself, I am afraid it is more transcendent than any seemingly being
in any realm. In the terrestrial (effective) realm, you can't
distinguish God from the Devil. The most which can make (G*- non
communicable) sense is that you eventually remember who you are,
being God, or the Devil. It is the only way you might be able to
differentiate them.
Bruno
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