Hi Chris, A colleague of mine has found a few possible examples of "self-assembling code" but they are not strings of bits, they are better described as a form of topological object. They are based on a different model of computation: http://chorasimilarity.wordpress.com/2014/09/01/quines-in-chemlambda/
On Mon, Sep 1, 2014 at 2:45 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List < [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > *From:* [email protected] [mailto: > [email protected]] *On Behalf Of *John Clark > *Sent:* Monday, September 01, 2014 9:43 AM > > *To:* [email protected] > *Subject:* Re: AI Dooms Us > > > > On Sun, Aug 31, 2014 at 3:18 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List < > [email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Just want to point out that the process of DNA expression is highly > dynamic and is multi-factored > > > > Yes it certainly is, but however dynamic the DNA information is it's still > just 750 meg (actually it's much less than that considering the massive > amount of redundancy in our genome). And Telmo's 1000 lines of lisp would > also have to be highly dynamic. > > > > Amazing isn’t it. The elegance of self-assembling processes that can do so > much with so little input. I doubt 1000 lines of computer code is a large > enough initial instruction set even for a highly self-generating system. > Maybe a few million lines of code might do it though, if it was code that > generated other code and so forth in a cascading process similar to > embryogenesis in eukaryotes. > > > The mammalian genomes undergo very extensive genomic reprogramming > during embryogenesis. > > > > And where did the information about how to do that reprogramming come > from? From the original 750 meg. > > > > Much of it did certainly. But it also comes from the environment… e.g. > from an external source. The outcome of embryogenesis is affected by > epigenetic influences that alter what genetic information is expressed and > also crucially when (at what point in sequences of expression) it occurs. > This external epigenetic programming instructions are completely outside of > that original bundle of genetic information. > > > > > > This is especially so during the process of embryogenesis, an unfolding > developmental choreographed switching process that is controlled by > epigenetic programming (methylation /demethylation and other mechanisms). > > > Methylation means that occasionally a Methyl group might be added to one > of the DNA bases, a base would have a Methyl group or it would not so it's > still digital. There are 4 bases so AT MOST each of the 3 billion bases > would represent 3 bits instead of 2, so the information content would > increase from 750 Meg to 1.12 Gig and with a file compression program like > ZIP you could still fit all of it on a CD. > > But the fact is that the epigenetic external information is not available > until run-time. It exists outside the organism in its environment. > > But in reality Epigenetic information is pretty clearly of minor > importance compared with the DNA sequence information, so I doubt it would > even cause it to increase to 751 Meg. And the evidence that Epigenetic > heredity exists for more than one generation is very meager. > > > > I do not agree that the understanding and quantification of epigenetic > influences on human development (especially during embryogenesis) is as > settled or of minor consequence as you state. There is evidence for example > that it persists for three generations in studies of cigarette smokers > progeny, and I have read studies that point to high stress in one > generation resulting in epigenetic hereditary outcomes in subsequent > generations. Even identical twins as they grow and live through their > different lives – even their originally identical DNA diverges in its > expressed outcome due to epigenetic affects. > > > DNA is not a direct single layered – single meaning -- instruction set > encoded and fixed. > > > > You can assign as many layers of meaning on it as you like but nothing can > change the fact that you could put all the information in the entire human > DNA genome on a old fashioned CD and still have enough room on it for a > Beatles album from 1965. > > > > And 32 or so fundamental values define (fix, quantify) all the laws of our > universe. Amazing complexity can emerge from simple initial conditions. > > > > > The same strand of DNA, depending on the dynamic action of the large > number of transcription factors > > > > A transcription factors is just a protein that binds to specific DNA > sequences. And where did the information come from to know what sequence of > amino acids will build that very important protein? From the original 750 > Meg of course. > > From that original bundle of genetic code + environmental influences. 90% > of the living things in a human body DO NOT have human DNA (not by weight > of course but by census)… our behavior, our desires, our decisions, our > thoughts, dreams, cravings, fears… our volition… is at least in part being > driven by these other non-human organisms (especially the huge diverse > community of microorganisms living in our guts). > > The kind of flora and fauna we have in our guts in many ways determines > who we are, what we think and what we desire. It affects out well-being (or > lack of it), our emotions and our goals. This genetic information is not > part of the human DNA, but humans have coevolved with these communities of > microorganisms and many of them play important (perhaps vital) roles in our > Darwinian fitness. > > The information that triggers a whole slew of affects resulting in a > changed outcome for the organism could very well have originated in some > microorganism inhabiting that individuals gut. Our immune system especially > seems to have co-evolved to work symbiotically with many different species > of microorganisms. > > We require a vast library of CDs to live healthy lives…. Not just our DNA > CD, but all the DNA CDs of the thousands of organisms that a healthy human > animal requires (or greatly benefits from having within them). We are not > isolated organisms apart from the many other cohabitating organisms that > journey through life living inside our bodies. > > > It is – IMO – necessary to understand DNA as [...] > > > > I'm not saying that understanding how 750 Meg of DNA information manages > to produce a human being will be easy, figuring out how Telmo's 1000 lines > of lisp works will not be easy either, but I am saying that's all the > information there is. > > John K Clark > > > > I agree that it is amazingly compact. We may differ on where we draw the > line. I do not see a single human (or other eukaryote) only in terms of its > own DNA + epigenetic meta-programming over the DNA base, but also in terms > of the ecosystem that exists within. Both the beneficial and the parasitic > species within us hugely affect our lives – as they do with every > multi-cellular species we know about. > > We are walking talking ecosystems with biotic auras as unique as > fingerprints (in fact forensic science is beginning to study this as a > potential investigative tool) > > -Chris > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the > Google Groups "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this topic, visit > https://groups.google.com/d/topic/everything-list/YJeHJO5dNqQ/unsubscribe. > To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to > [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Kindest Regards, Stephen Paul King Senior Researcher Mobile: (864) 567-3099 [email protected] http://www.provensecure.us/ “This message (including any attachments) is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed, and may contain information that is non-public, proprietary, privileged, confidential and exempt from disclosure under applicable law or may be constituted as attorney work product. 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