On 30 Dec 2014, at 20:17, meekerdb wrote:
On 12/30/2014 5:34 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 30 Dec 2014, at 01:38, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List
wrote:
----- Forwarded Message -----
From: Alberto G. Corona <[email protected]>
To: everything-list <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, December 29, 2014 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: Democracy
>>The Soviet union can be formally considered a "democracy". There
is nothing external or formal that may distinguish a democracy
from any other regime. Since every modern state has the same
elements. All of them use the
momenclature of the age. The word democracy is the most overused
world in this century togeter with "scientific".
No word comes close to matching the overuse of the word "god"
however.
Yes, ... and no.
For the greeks "God" was just a pointer to the truth we are
searching,
For the greeks it was God(s) and they were persons.
Come on Brent, I am talking about Plato, not Homer. In fact, through
Plato and Plotinus, I am thinking about Parmenides: the ONE unifying
thing. You seem unaware of what I call greek Theology. It is manly
Parmenides.
through theories and observation. It led to math and physics, +
inquiry about which one is more fundamental, and what might still
be beyond math and physics. That use of God remains in some
language expression, like when we say "only God knows", which means
"I don't know".
It means "Nobody knows." God=nobody.
You are literaly correct: the bodies (beings) are related to the Noùs
(and Matter, in the greek sense of indeterminate: this is captured by
the bi-emulation of G and Z, or []p & []p @ <>t).
God is not a being, nor a body.
But it is a knower (indeed perhaps the only one). You know only
through God knowing through you, in that theory, that is why the inner
God (your first person) is truly God, amnesic and with the memory
restricted to yours.
Then, when the science "theology" has been recuperated by politics,
and when religion get institutionalized, the term God has become
the name of some hero in some fairy tale,
Like "Zeus" and "Poseid0n" and "Hermes" and "Jupiter".
Except that the greek theology already abstract themselves from the
fairy tale. I am really talking about the science discovered by Plato.
It really looks you are not aware of Plato.
and the science behind has been put under the rug, and is still
taboo today (which I can understand for the Church's employee, but
not for the atheists, which should on the contrary be open to the
coming back to reason in that field.
The field of "the truth we are searching"? They never left that
field.
Because they (and you) confuse the hypostases []p and []p & p. It is
normal: it *is* subtle, but the greek (Theaetus) saw the difficulty
(and Gödel redeemed Theaetetus, which is a bomb in metaphysics, I
would say).
Most scientists are atheists.
Reference? I am not sure of that. Normally all scientists are or
should be agnostic, even on God and Matter. They need certainly to be
so in theology, if the science comes back.
There is no field of theology because it is the study of imaginary
beings who know what nobody knows.
That is your naive conception, which should not be invoked in science.
Or, to put things differently: today we have the proves that those
"being" exists: they are determined by set of Gödel number of
arithmetical proposition (the ONE = the set of true proposition, the
Noùs is a super set of such sets, etc.).
Theology is the proganda arm of religion.
Institutionalized religion have forbidden theology, or confined them
in dogmatic realms.
Theology is just the science of your soul, with question like "is it
immortal?", "is is nameable?", what is the relation with the One,
where does matter comes from, is is an illusion like time? etc.
Eventually I conclude that atheism is *really* the religious mirror
of christianity. They have the same notion of God (even if it is
used only to be denied) and they have the same notion of primary
matter (modulo some details).
Exactly. The same notion of "God" used by everybody who prays to a
god, has faith in a god, and has a religion based on a god.
Not at all. Hinduists have different conception, buddhists too,
taoiste too (even if there are also poular superstitution).
It was part of the definition or intuition of Erath that it is a flat
structure, but then we grasped that it is round. We didn't say that
Earth does not exist, despite correcting the definition/intution. Why
not doing the same with God. It is the natural thing to do when doing
science. Yes, God is unlike the god of the Fairy tale, like Earth is
not that flat structure surrounded by an revolving sun.
Atheists are quite clear on what sort of being they do not believe
exists and you are the only person I know who seems to think it is a
fault to be clear about ones meaning.
I discuss all this on many groups (facebook), and I am not the only
one, and it is known by scholar that this is just what the greeks did,
until they were banished or persecuted. But most contemporary serious
theologian, even catholick, can be serious and do the same (with
constrains due to the presence of the hierachy, but they can go
around, like the scientist in the ex-USSR).
The coming back of theology to science is the only way to fight again
dogmatic fairy tales and the fanaticism it can lead too.
I consider that as long as theology as not come back in science,
science has not yet begun. Atheists are really just christians in
disguise when they mock theology, because they see only the fairy
tale, and they impose (by violence as I can see) Aristotle
metaphysics. All sciences, except the most fundamental one, get back
during Enlightenment. We are still barbarian, and the news show it
clearly.
Bruno
Brent
So God is both not enough used (it means the unknown fundamental
reality, simply) and overused (idolatry, blasphems, argument by
terror (like with hell), etc.).
Bruno
-Chris
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