Neither the USSR was democratic neither democracy means freedom. I said to you that democracy is a bad name, a wildcard that each one fill with underserved and unjustified attirbuted, a symbol of freedom that does not deserve it.
It is like If i insist to call alcoholism as the proper name for euphoria. The same happens with democracy and freedom. If truth and freedom were the result of the decission of the majority, then herds of sheeps would have painted the Chapelle Sixtine and they would be exploring the galaxy. So hard is that to be understood? 2015-01-03 15:29 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>: > > On 02 Jan 2015, at 21:01, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_democracy > > > First, a reference to wikipedia is everything but an argument. > > Second, it looks like the athenian democracy". I just said that this is > not "democracy" in the modern sense of the word. > > From my own research, the USSR has been one of the hardest dictatorship in > human history. Only after the fall of the berlin wall could many refugees > (from USSR and its satellites) see their family again, when still alive. > > Religion was also forbidden and christians, jews and others have been > deported or executed, in mass. All people I know from there confirmed: no > elections, except at the top of the hierarchy, like in China. Those were > atheist dictatorships. > > If you believed that the USSR was democratic, I understand better your > critics on the democratic system! > > Bruno > > > > > > > 2015-01-02 12:38 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>: > >> >> On 01 Jan 2015, at 22:28, Alberto G. Corona wrote: >> >> >> >> 2014-12-30 14:15 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>: >> >>> >>> On 29 Dec 2014, at 19:27, Alberto G. Corona wrote: >>> >>> The Soviet union can be formally considered a "democracy". >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> I disagree. Democracy is when there are election, with secret vote, >>> every four or five years. It allows a formal opposition with some >>> representation is some parliament or equivalent. >>> >> >> The soviet union had elections and a other parties. It had a parliament . >> At least in most of the comunist parties there were a "formal" opposition. >> The constitution of the URSS was ok according to liberal standards. All >> that you mentioned were meet as well as it is met by almost every modern >> regime >> >> >> You might give reference. I have never heard of the people being able to >> vote. >> >> A leftist friend of mind was so naive on this that he asked to the USSR >> to accept him as political refugees, during a visit there (well before the >> fall of the Berlin wall). He get imprisonned, suspect of being a spy, but >> eventually succeeded to hide in an embassy, and escape. His opinion on the >> USSR "democracy" changed. >> >> Just give me a reference of one vote of the people (not just at the top) >> in the USSR. Thanks. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> http://books.google.es/books?id=kNfBCKFB8WMC&printsec=frontcover&hl=es#v=onepage&q=soviet&f=false >>> >>> >>> By looking for a true universal classification for political regimes, It >>> is necessary to raise the level of analysis to metaphysics and theology, >>> since definitions need to be more and more abstract and precise at the same >>> time. There is no way to use the external (formal) neither the internal >>> (self reported) data. >>> >>> Basically the only possible forms of governments are the ones defined by >>> the greek phylosophers. >>> >>> >>> Actually I disagree on this, despite my appreciation of the greeks >>> philosophers. Plato, and even Plotinus, tried to implement cities governed >>> by "sage", but this does not work. Cities are better governed by >>> opportunist egoists, hoping they are clever enough to take into account the >>> suggestion of the people (if only to be reelected later). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> There is no others possible. The names used in each age vary depending >>> on the ideologies that support the state, but that does not change the >>> underlying nature. And the ideology that support the legitimacy of the >>> regime is a form or religion. That is in what is based the branch of >>> political theory called political theology, the deepest branch. >>> >>> >>> >>> In machine's theology, invoking religion in politics is already a >>> blasphem. >>> >>> Theology cannot be political, no more than physics or biology. >>> Politicians can take into acoount their beliefs and faith, but not in a >>> public way. Democracy separates religion and state. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Marxism is close to Islam. >>> >>> >>> I do agree with this, with Islamism instead of Islam. I am astonished >>> how much the leftists defend the fanatical Islamists and even the >>> antisemites and the antichristians, those days. >>> >>> >>> >>> And The soviet Union close to an oriental empire with the King-Priest >>> that has the unique power to interpret the true meaning of history. >>> >>> >>> Yes. But that shows how much it is not democratic. Russia has made >>> progress though. More than we realize in West Europa. But they have still >>> big progress to do. In the West, we have regressed a lot, and the more I >>> study how and why, the more I link this to prohibition. >>> >>> Exercise: >>> 5 years of prohibition of alcohol has given Al Capone. >>> What has given 75 years of prohibition of cannabis? >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> 2014-12-28 11:57 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>: >>> >>>> >>>> On 27 Dec 2014, at 23:40, Kim Jones wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 27 Dec 2014, at 11:44 pm, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> On 27 Dec 2014, at 03:11, Kim Jones wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Democracy is a concept. It can be implemented in various ways. I >>>>>>> like Liz's conceptualisation of it as communist-style sharing of >>>>>>> astcronomical wealth and resources among the elites with cockroaches and >>>>>>> urine for breakfast for the rest of us (that's what prisoners in North >>>>>>> Korea get given for breakfast according to QC Geoffrey Robertson.) No >>>>>>> one >>>>>>> who gets jugged hare and Beluga caviar for lunch around Pyongyang feels >>>>>>> like they exist in anything other than a perfect democracy. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Bruno: I doubt this. I am sure that all dictator knows pretty well >>>>>> that they are not in a democracy. They fight democracy by all means. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> So why do they call this place "The DEMOCRATIC People's Republic of >>>>> Korea (DPRK) ?? Is this some kind of joke or insincere label? >>>>> >>>> >>>> Typical insincere label of a non-democracy. By democracy I think it is >>>> usually meant that people can vote, regularly, with a representation of >>>> opposition party, and some level of education (without which voting does >>>> not really work). >>>> The secret of the vote is imperative. Voting with hands does not count >>>> (for obvious reason). >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Oh, that's right - they have simply misunderstood the true nature of >>>>> democracy, because they don't subscribe to this list, silly me. >>>>> >>>> >>>> ? >>>> We might have a problem of definition. I think it is just the >>>> definition of the term. Democracy is just when we have the right to vote. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> They have defined "democracy" the way they choose; just as does every >>>>> country who finds this a useful concept. As I said: democracy is a concept >>>>> and concepts have many many ways of being implemented or delivered. >>>>> >>>> >>>> I am not sure. Democracy is mainly the right of voting. The east >>>> european countries could not, before the Berlin wall felt, and are >>>> democracies after. Tunisia, Egypt, even Russia are doing step toward a >>>> representative democracy, which obviously is hard to implement due to the >>>> conflicts of interest. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Clearly, the trick they employ in the DPRK is to define "the people" >>>>> differently to other countries. That something like two-thirds of the >>>>> "population" of the DPRK don't even officially exist (ie no birth record >>>>> kept) appears to be the magic trick. >>>>> >>>> >>>> The DPRK is not a democracy at all. Nobody would believe it is a >>>> democracy, not even the leader Kim, except for some tyrannic purpose. >>>> >>>> >>>>> The kernel concept of democracy is government by the majority. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Not always. This is complex according to the number of party. With >>>> multi-partism, sometimes we are governed by a tiny party which can >>>> influence between two bigger parties which are close to 50%. That is the >>>> case in my country now: we are governed by a party which is not >>>> representative of the majority. In Israel also, very often, little minority >>>> parties get a lot of power. This is the main reason why I favor bi-partism, >>>> although this has some problem too. If the politics go too much on the >>>> right, you can vote on the left, and vice-versa. This works, unless the >>>> parties are manipulated by non transparent powers, like in America today, >>>> at least for for some political questions. This is a failure of a sick and >>>> old democracy. We can think about how to correct that, but democracies, >>>> like living being, are fragile by nature. They can die, like in Germany in >>>> the thirties. >>>> >>>> >>>> So, all you have to do to have a workable majority is to erase a >>>>> sizeable part of the population. >>>>> >>>>> Voilà. Government for and by the majority. >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> If the majority is erased or impeach to vote, the democracy is faked. >>>> You cannot criticize the heart by pointing on people having heart disease. >>>> >>>> Bruno >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> K >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Alberto. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >>> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alberto. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > Alberto. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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