http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_democracy
2015-01-02 12:38 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>: > > On 01 Jan 2015, at 22:28, Alberto G. Corona wrote: > > > > 2014-12-30 14:15 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>: > >> >> On 29 Dec 2014, at 19:27, Alberto G. Corona wrote: >> >> The Soviet union can be formally considered a "democracy". >> >> >> >> >> I disagree. Democracy is when there are election, with secret vote, every >> four or five years. It allows a formal opposition with some representation >> is some parliament or equivalent. >> > > The soviet union had elections and a other parties. It had a parliament . > At least in most of the comunist parties there were a "formal" opposition. > The constitution of the URSS was ok according to liberal standards. All > that you mentioned were meet as well as it is met by almost every modern > regime > > > You might give reference. I have never heard of the people being able to > vote. > > A leftist friend of mind was so naive on this that he asked to the USSR to > accept him as political refugees, during a visit there (well before the > fall of the Berlin wall). He get imprisonned, suspect of being a spy, but > eventually succeeded to hide in an embassy, and escape. His opinion on the > USSR "democracy" changed. > > Just give me a reference of one vote of the people (not just at the top) > in the USSR. Thanks. > > Bruno > > > > >> >> >> >> >> http://books.google.es/books?id=kNfBCKFB8WMC&printsec=frontcover&hl=es#v=onepage&q=soviet&f=false >> >> >> By looking for a true universal classification for political regimes, It >> is necessary to raise the level of analysis to metaphysics and theology, >> since definitions need to be more and more abstract and precise at the same >> time. There is no way to use the external (formal) neither the internal >> (self reported) data. >> >> Basically the only possible forms of governments are the ones defined by >> the greek phylosophers. >> >> >> Actually I disagree on this, despite my appreciation of the greeks >> philosophers. Plato, and even Plotinus, tried to implement cities governed >> by "sage", but this does not work. Cities are better governed by >> opportunist egoists, hoping they are clever enough to take into account the >> suggestion of the people (if only to be reelected later). >> >> >> >> >> There is no others possible. The names used in each age vary depending on >> the ideologies that support the state, but that does not change the >> underlying nature. And the ideology that support the legitimacy of the >> regime is a form or religion. That is in what is based the branch of >> political theory called political theology, the deepest branch. >> >> >> >> In machine's theology, invoking religion in politics is already a >> blasphem. >> >> Theology cannot be political, no more than physics or biology. >> Politicians can take into acoount their beliefs and faith, but not in a >> public way. Democracy separates religion and state. >> >> >> >> >> >> Marxism is close to Islam. >> >> >> I do agree with this, with Islamism instead of Islam. I am astonished how >> much the leftists defend the fanatical Islamists and even the antisemites >> and the antichristians, those days. >> >> >> >> And The soviet Union close to an oriental empire with the King-Priest >> that has the unique power to interpret the true meaning of history. >> >> >> Yes. But that shows how much it is not democratic. Russia has made >> progress though. More than we realize in West Europa. But they have still >> big progress to do. In the West, we have regressed a lot, and the more I >> study how and why, the more I link this to prohibition. >> >> Exercise: >> 5 years of prohibition of alcohol has given Al Capone. >> What has given 75 years of prohibition of cannabis? >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> 2014-12-28 11:57 GMT+01:00 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>: >> >>> >>> On 27 Dec 2014, at 23:40, Kim Jones wrote: >>> >>> >>>> >>>> On 27 Dec 2014, at 11:44 pm, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>> On 27 Dec 2014, at 03:11, Kim Jones wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Democracy is a concept. It can be implemented in various ways. I like >>>>>> Liz's conceptualisation of it as communist-style sharing of astcronomical >>>>>> wealth and resources among the elites with cockroaches and urine for >>>>>> breakfast for the rest of us (that's what prisoners in North Korea get >>>>>> given for breakfast according to QC Geoffrey Robertson.) No one who gets >>>>>> jugged hare and Beluga caviar for lunch around Pyongyang feels like they >>>>>> exist in anything other than a perfect democracy. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Bruno: I doubt this. I am sure that all dictator knows pretty well >>>>> that they are not in a democracy. They fight democracy by all means. >>>>> >>>> >>>> So why do they call this place "The DEMOCRATIC People's Republic of >>>> Korea (DPRK) ?? Is this some kind of joke or insincere label? >>>> >>> >>> Typical insincere label of a non-democracy. By democracy I think it is >>> usually meant that people can vote, regularly, with a representation of >>> opposition party, and some level of education (without which voting does >>> not really work). >>> The secret of the vote is imperative. Voting with hands does not count >>> (for obvious reason). >>> >>> >>> >>>> Oh, that's right - they have simply misunderstood the true nature of >>>> democracy, because they don't subscribe to this list, silly me. >>>> >>> >>> ? >>> We might have a problem of definition. I think it is just the definition >>> of the term. Democracy is just when we have the right to vote. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> They have defined "democracy" the way they choose; just as does every >>>> country who finds this a useful concept. As I said: democracy is a concept >>>> and concepts have many many ways of being implemented or delivered. >>>> >>> >>> I am not sure. Democracy is mainly the right of voting. The east >>> european countries could not, before the Berlin wall felt, and are >>> democracies after. Tunisia, Egypt, even Russia are doing step toward a >>> representative democracy, which obviously is hard to implement due to the >>> conflicts of interest. >>> >>> >>> >>> Clearly, the trick they employ in the DPRK is to define "the people" >>>> differently to other countries. That something like two-thirds of the >>>> "population" of the DPRK don't even officially exist (ie no birth record >>>> kept) appears to be the magic trick. >>>> >>> >>> The DPRK is not a democracy at all. Nobody would believe it is a >>> democracy, not even the leader Kim, except for some tyrannic purpose. >>> >>> >>>> The kernel concept of democracy is government by the majority. >>>> >>> >>> Not always. This is complex according to the number of party. With >>> multi-partism, sometimes we are governed by a tiny party which can >>> influence between two bigger parties which are close to 50%. That is the >>> case in my country now: we are governed by a party which is not >>> representative of the majority. In Israel also, very often, little minority >>> parties get a lot of power. This is the main reason why I favor bi-partism, >>> although this has some problem too. If the politics go too much on the >>> right, you can vote on the left, and vice-versa. This works, unless the >>> parties are manipulated by non transparent powers, like in America today, >>> at least for for some political questions. This is a failure of a sick and >>> old democracy. We can think about how to correct that, but democracies, >>> like living being, are fragile by nature. They can die, like in Germany in >>> the thirties. >>> >>> >>> So, all you have to do to have a workable majority is to erase a >>>> sizeable part of the population. >>>> >>>> Voilà. Government for and by the majority. >>>> >>> >>> >>> If the majority is erased or impeach to vote, the democracy is faked. >>> You cannot criticize the heart by pointing on people having heart disease. >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> K >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Alberto. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >> >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > > > > -- > Alberto. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- Alberto. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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