> On 04-Feb-2015, at 12:01 am, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> On 03 Feb 2015, at 06:54, Samiya Illias wrote: >> >> >> >>> On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 10:56 PM, Bruno Marchal <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> On 02 Feb 2015, at 06:37, Samiya Illias wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> On 02-Feb-2015, at 6:12 am, LizR <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> On 2 February 2015 at 00:15, Samiya Illias <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> On Sun, Feb 1, 2015 at 1:01 PM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>> There is a difference between advancing a theory in a spirit of >>>>>>> agnosticism and being convinced you know the truth and that everyone >>>>>>> else is wrong. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hmm... >>>>>> Someday, I hope and pray, when you're blessed with faith, perhaps you'll >>>>>> understand me. >>> >>> >>> As other observed that's close to the worst authority argument. By "worst" >>> I don't make a moral judgment, but it is worst in the sense that it is not >>> just invalid, but it makes the honest people automatically doubting your >>> message. >> >> I am not presenting an argument above. I'm just saying that this is >> something to do with feeling/experiencing/qualia? so I cannot explain it nor >> do I expect anyone who doesn't to understand it. I know its not valid. That >> is why I hope Someday... > > Note that it *can* be valid as a personal thought, tough. But when you make > it public, it is patronizing per-authority argument. Well, I don't know, but > that what is the universal machine thinks for herself. > > > > >>> >>> >>>>> And vice versa, if you are blessed with faith in reason. >>>> >>>> Thanks! :) >>> >>> Reason is the best tool, if not the only tool (at some level) >> >> I agree. Reason is a tool, and perhaps the best tool, which is to be used to >> approach reality. > > Assuming there is one common to all of us. > >> >>> to survive the unreasonable (arithmetical) reality, and to maximize >>> partial relative control. >>> >>> Unfortunately "reason" gives the ability to lie and manipulate the others >>> at different levels. >> >> Both reason and religion have been abused over and over again > > Yes, like drugs (medication). It is in he human nature, but I think we do > progress, and can still progress. > > > > >> >>> >>> Then reason shows that arithmetic is already full of life, indeed full of >>> an infinity of universal machines competing to provide your infinitely many >>> relatively consistent continuations. >>> >>> Incompleteness imposes, at least formally, a soul (a first person), an >>> observer (a first person plural), a "god" (an independent simple but deep >>> truth) to any machine believing in the RA axioms together with enough >>> induction axioms. I know you believe in them. >>> >>> The lexicon is >>> p truth God >>> []p provable Intelligible (modal logic, G and G*) >>> []p & p the soul (modal logic, S4Grz) >>> []p & <>t intelligible matter (with p sigma_1) (modal logic, Z1, Z1*) >>> []p & sensible matter (with p sigma_1) (modal logic, X1, X1*) >>> >>> You need to study some math, >> >> I have been wanting to but it seems such an uphill task. Yet, its a mountain >> I would like to climb :) > > 7 + 0 = 7. You are OK with this? Tell me.
OK > > Are you OK with the generalisation? For all numbers n, n + 0 = n. Right? Right :) You suggest I begin with Set Theory? Samiya > > > >> >>> to see that this give eight quite different view the universal machines >>> develop on themselves. >> >> Reminds me of this verse [http://quran.com/69/17 ]: >> And the angels are at its edges. And there will bear the Throne of your Lord >> above them, that Day, eight [of them]. > > It is like that: The four first (plotinian) hypostases live harmonically in > the arithmetical heaven: > > > God > > Terrestrial Intelligible Divine Intelligible > > Universal Soul > > > > But then the Universal Soul falls, and you get the (four) matters, and the > "bastard calculus": > > > Intelligible terrestrial matter Intelligible Divine matter > > Sensible terrestrial matter Sensible Divine matter > > > > Here divine means mainly what is true about the machine/number and not > justifiable by the numbers. > > > > > >> >>> It provides a universal person, with a soul, consistent extensions, >>> beliefs, and some proximity (or not) to God (which is the "ultimate" >>> semantic that the machine cannot entirely figure out by herself (hence the >>> faith). >> >> Interesting! > > All universal machine looking inward discover an inexhaustible reality, with > absolute and relative aspects. > > Babbage discovered the universal machine, (and understood its universality). > The universal machine, the mathematical concept, will be (re)discovered and > made more precise by a bunch of mathematical logicians, like Turing, Post, > Church, Kleene. > > You are using such a universal system right now, even plausibly two of them: > your brain and your computer. They are a key concept in computer science. > They suffer a big prize for their universality, as it makes them possible to > crash, be lied, be lost, be deluded. They can know that they are universal, > and so they can know the consequences. > > The religion which recognizes the universal machine and her classical > theology might be the one which will spread easily in the galaxy in the > forthcoming millenaries. (Independently of being true or false, actually). > > Bruno > > > > > >> Samiya >>> >>> If you want to convince me, you have to first convince the universal person >>> associated to the Löbian machine, I'm afraid. >>> >>> I am not pretending that the machine theology applies to us, but it is a >>> good etalon to compare the theologies/religions/reality-conceptions. The >>> problem is that we have to backtrack to Plato, where what we see is only >>> the border of something, that we can't see, but yet can intuit and talk >>> about (a bit like mathematics or music) >>> >>> Bruno >>> >>> >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>>> "Everything List" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>>> "Everything List" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>>> email to [email protected]. >>>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >>> http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "Everything List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >>> email to [email protected]. >>> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >>> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "Everything List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to [email protected]. >> To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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