On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:48 PM, PGC <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > On Friday, April 24, 2015 at 5:55:46 PM UTC+2, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 24 Apr 2015, at 02:30, Telmo Menezes wrote: >> >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 1:19 AM, LizR <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> You should both go to jail, on the basis that both copies of you had the >>> same consciousness as the person who committed the murder, and therefore >>> you are both equally responsible (leaving aside considerations of free will >>> etc) >>> >> >> I agree. I would be curious to know if anyone disagrees with this, and >> why. >> >> >> >> Now, I agree. And Liz gave two good arguments, one pure 3p, and the other >> is terms of moral punishment. The first one is enough, but the second one >> make sense too. >> >> Another "terrible question": do people have the right to torture copies, >> when they accepted the protocols, that is with consent made at the time >> before the duplication? >> >> Should that be made illegal? (assuming the technology, comp, etc.) >> > > Depends on what we mean by the term "illegal" or "jail". If "jail" or > "legality" turns out to be just some unreflected form of confinement or > isolation, then we only replicate our tendency towards another form of > vengeance justice. This seems medieval/savage, which is plausible; but what > if we assumed they are less savage than us because they've grown bored? > > Because I'm not sure we need "forms of punishment" a priori in all > scenarios of justice. In such sufficiently advanced setting, where we can > e.g. copy Telmo, we can define crime as something like: "form of amnesia > relative to theological aspects/questions of personhood", then justice is > restored when that amnesia is either lifted or the person decides to move > to a geography where said amnesia can be lived/dreamed by people who choose > it theologically; where it can theologically kick back. Unfortunately, this > opens up territoriality of geography, which I'd like to not have to do. > Ideally, we'd like to lift that amnesia, perhaps. This may be fuzzy, but at > least more precise than faith in weirdly justified spans of time for > "confinement for security of society". > > I could see it as the job of scientists, mystics, and artists to grapple > with this huge problem of how to make amnesic loss of theological question > of personhood, accessible to such persons again (who committed "crime"). > I'm not sure the term "illegal" or "crime" would still apply in such > setting; closer to "they forgot stuff/questions". So "crime" would be > closer to restoration of memory and bear on "how did we get here in local > history?" which would give clues to undo the imbalance and appears more as > a memory problem, than a problem with "Telmo" (sorry for using you like > this, man ;-)) > > Not that I would assume a clear solution (we're attempting good/evil > here...); just assuming we can be less naive and hand waving with theology > and question of dream/reality than we are today, which is a high price tag. > But we could reasonably assume a lot more histories with programming > virtual worlds, altered states of mind, theological practice and nuance, > technological tools, engineering and management of trance/ecstasy, maybe > some advance on problem of evil etc. > > I try to exercise setting up such scenario's fictionally, but it is > difficult to find ones that are fun, where Goedel does not bite back too > much, lol. Thanks for posting/sharing, Telmo. This is more fun than all the > usual and yet understandable preaching for physical universe, politics, > environment etc. Closer to some of Wei Dai's thoughts and writings as well. > Thanks! Although it's a fun scenario to discuss, my main motivation here was to show that appeals to common sense on "personal identity" are a charade. When we mobilize some of our ancient instincts (like the instinct to punish those who disrespect important social norms), those instincts seem to tell us that both copies are valid continuations of the original. Or, saying it another way, when something important is at stake, it seems that we suddenly know the answer. This proves nothing, of course, but at least gives a counter-example to claims that the comp notion of personal identity is not aligned with our common sense perception of personal identity. Telmo. > PGC > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
