On Thu, May 14, 2015 at 6:46 PM, Russell Standish <[email protected]> wrote:
> >> Laplace didn't know that calculation takes energy and produces entropy, > > > > Sure, so we now know the daemon cannot be physical. If the daemon isn't physical then, at least as far as we know, the daemon can't do anything including calculate or observe or think. > >> he thought deterministic was the same as predictable and it isn't. How > on earth do you expect the poor daemon to know if a program to find the > first even integer greater than 2 that is not the sum of two prime numbers > and then stop will ever stop if Goldbach is true but has no proof?? > > > Deterministic means you can predict what will happen at some given time > t_1 after the origin. Only if the prediction itself does not change the state of the system as would happen if you told Og what fork in the road ahead you thought he would end up going down. And you might be making your "prediction" a long time after t_1 already occurred because there might not be a shortcut so the quickest way to find out what the system will do is to just watch it and see. And you'd still have no idea what will happen at time t_2. > > So you can just run the program for t_1 seconds, and it will tell you > whether the proigram has halted by that time or not. If you want to > actually predict the outcome, use a 10x faster computer. > And if you find out that the program is still running at time t_10 that information will be of no help whatsoever in answering my question, will the program ever stop? > To determine the outcome of the program in the above circumstance, > you need a more powerful beast than Laplace's daemon - it would need to > be a Halting Oracle - ie someone who knows the decimal expansion > of Chaitin's Omega to say a few thousand decimal places. And both mathematics and physics agree that there is no way that anyone or ANYTHING can ever know what Chaitin's Omega is because its digits are truly random. And even if you were familiar with the number through pure chance there is no way you'd know that it was Chaitin's Omega, to you it would just seem to be a string of random digits like so many others. Fantasising what would happen if you knew the value of Chaitin's Omega and knew it was Chaitin's Omega is like asking what things would be like if 2+2=5. > > But a Halting Oracle can never predict the outcome of FPI, Because even a Halting Oracle can not answer a gibberish question. >>>> The daemon must keep his prediction of Og's behavior secret from Og >> or lie about what he really thinks Og will do. If Og is DETERMINED to do >> the opposite of whatever the daemon predicts he will do and Og is told what >> the prediction is then the daemon's prediction will never be correct. > > >>> What does DETERMINED mean here? > >> Deterministic clockwork. > > > Right - so you're setting up a logical contradiction. Yes. > > You haven't really proved anything by it, other than Laplace daemons > cannot influence the system they study. The daemon would have no difficulty influencing the system, but if he does his predictions will be wrong. John K Clark > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
