On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 at 7:44 PM, John Clark <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2015 Terren Suydam <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> you're just sidestepping the fact that in the scenario I'm proposing, the >> two copies will have to work it out which will sacrifice themselves for the >> benefit of the other. >> > > Work it out? If they're identical so they agree on everything and would > have a equal desire (or a equal reluctance) to open that door. > > > I'm just wondering if this is some odd euphemism for physical death. >> "We're sorry ma'am, but your son was, err, disrupted instantaneously last >> night." "Heavens, is he alright?" > > > Let me propose my own thought experimenter. > An exact duplicate of the earth, and its entire ecosystem, is created a > billion light years away. The duplicate world would need some sort of > feedback mechanism to keep the worlds in synchronization, non linear > effects would amplify tiny variations, even quantum fluctuations, into big > differences, but this is a thought experiment so who cares. In the first two > > cases > below the results would vary according to personalities, remember there's > a lot of illogic even in the best of us. > > 1) I know all about the duplicate world and you put a 44 magnum gun to my > head and tell me that in ten seconds you will blow my brains out. Am I > concerned? You bet I am because I know that your double is holding an > identical gun to the head of my double and making an identical threat. > > 2) I find out that for the first time since the Big Bang the worlds will > diverge and in 10 seconds you will put a bullet in my head but my double > will be spared, am I concerned? Yes, and angry as well, in times of intense > stress nobody is very logical. My double is no longer exact because I am > going through a traumatic experience and my double is not. I'd be looking > at that huge gun and wondering what it will be like when it goes off and if > death will really be instantaneous. I'd be wondering if my philosophy was > really as sound as I thought it was and I'd also be wondering why I get the > > bullet and not my double and cursing the unfairness of it all. My (semi) > double would be thinking "it's a shame about that other fellow but I'm glad > it's not me". > > 3)I know nothing about the duplicate world, a gun is at both our heads and > we both are convinced we're going to die. One gun goes off, making a hell > of a mess, but the other gun, for inexplicable reasons misfires. In this > case > * > nobody > * > died and except for undergoing a terrifying experience I am completely > unharmed. The real beauty part is that I don't even have to clean up the > mess. > > Interesting but hardly relevant. We're not talking about duplicating worlds, just bodies in the same world. > > >> Imagine this is a reality show and while they're going through the >> ordeal, they are being interviewed for the show. They will have vastly >> different experiences, especially as they come to an agreement about who >> will live and who will get "disrupted instantaneously". >> > > If they have > " > vastly different experiences > " then they are no longer identical, they are vastly different. > > Yep. > > >> If a duplication occurs by uploading John Clark into two identical >> simulations, that's a different story - there is only one John Clark. But >> if the simulations were identical in every way, and deterministic in every >> way, then it could be argued that no duplication ever took place. >> > > In that case a brain has been duplicated but a consciousness has not been. > > >> >>> You just said and I agree that there are "two first-person views", and >>> both people who have those two different first person views remember being >>> the Helsinki man; so those talking about "THE" future first person view of >>> the Helsinki Man as if it were singular are talking nonsense. As for >>> "ridiculing the terminology" well...., from now on I promise to give it all >>> the respect it deserves. >>> >> >> > >> Awesome, then I await your take on Step 4. >> > > I have not read step 4 nor do I intend to. If step 3 of a proof, any > proof, is crap then the entire "proof" is crap. > > > There are a lot of skeptical people on this list. Yet as far as I can tell not one person has been swayed by your step 3 criticisms. You seem to have a blind spot nobody else has to answering the question, what is it be like to be Helsinki man? > > >> After all, the *one* subjective experience of Helsinki man prior to being >> duplicated becomes the *two* separate subjective experiences >> > > Yes. > > >> > >> That gives 1/2 probabilities of Helsinki Man experiencing continuing in >> either Moscow or Washington. >> > > But what does "The Helsinki Man" mean? It can't mean the guy currently > experiencing Helsinki because after the duplication nobody is in Helsinki > anymore, so it must mean the guy who remembers being the Helsinki Man; but > there are 2 people who meet that criteria. Therefor to determine the fate > of the Helsinki Man two and not just one individual must be interviewed, > and from that the only logical conclusion is that the Helsinki Man saw > Moscow AND Washington. > But you contradict yourself because as you say, once they diverge, they are no longer the same people. So Helsinki man cannot possibly have seen both. Terren > > John K Clark > > >> -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
