On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 at 6:38 PM, John Clark <[email protected]> wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 20, 2015 Terren Suydam <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> If they're identical then the number of bodies is irrelevant, there was >>> only one person in those 2 sealed rooms before anyone opened a door and >>> there is only one person in those 2 sealed rooms after one of them opened a >>> door. Opening a door changed nothing important. >>> >> >> > You're treating the room as a black box, but obviously the meat of this >> thought experiment is what goes on inside the room. >> > > I don't know what that means. > Just means that you can't dismiss what happens inside the room. > > >> > No duplicator experiment is possible in which the copies don't diverge. >> The only way they could stay identical after the duplication is if they >> shared the exact same space and time, >> > > If that were true then exchanging their position would cause a difference, > but it doesn't, not objectively and not subjectively either. Even the > universe doesn't know or care if the exchange really happened or not, so > why should you? > Yes it would cause a difference. There is only one room. The duplicator is inside the room. The room is not duplicated. The experiment wouldn't make sense if the room was duplicated - then both copies would be killed as soon as they open their respective doors. I know you've seen The Prestige. Spoiler alert for everyone else... Anyway, it's like the scene where Hugh Jackman's character duplicates himself for the first time, and he shoots his duplicate as soon as he realizes what's happened. That's what happens with this thought experiment, all inside the one room. I'm essentially recreating that scene from the movie, except that the two copies will have to negotiate which one kills himself for the benefit of the other. > > And consciousness doesn't even have a position. Does your consciousness > really exist inside a bone box sitting on your shoulders when you're in > Berlin looking at a picture of Dayton Ohio while thinking about the Great > Wall of China? It sure doesn't feel that way and the way things feel is > what consciousness is all about. > So you're abandoning physical supervenience? If you flood your bloodstream with alcohol do you not feel drunk? > > >> >> Subjectively there is no way to know what physical place you are in >>> unless you are given stimulation of some form the outside world. If you >>> and "another" identical person were looking at each other in a symmetrical >>> room and then I instantaneously exchanged your positions neither you nor >>> the "other" guy would not notice a difference, and a outside observer would >>> not notice a difference, and even the universe itself would not notice a >>> difference. If subjectively it makes no difference and objectively it makes >>> no difference then I think it's safe to say that it just makes no >>> difference, and in this context the word "another" has no meaning. >>> >> >> > But that only works if the room is symmetrical. And it's hard to >> understand why a fact about the room would have any bearing on the identity >> of the two duplicates. >> > > Because if the room were not symmetrical then the two would immediately > start to form different memories. > Right. That's part of the experiment. The experiment is not trying to create duplicates that don't diverge. > > > >> In fact was I even telling the truth when I said I exchanged the >>> positions? There would be no way to tell and no reason to care. >>> >> >> > But only if the room was symmetrical. If the wall behind me was black >> and the wall behind my duplicate was white, I would notice instantly if you >> switched us, or whether you were telling the truth about having done so. >> > > Yes, but so what? Obviously you can arrange things so that the two > immediately start to form different memories, but my point is that it > doesn't have to be that way and is not inherent in the body duplication > process itself. > There is a point to this thought experiment that does not depend on the copies remaining identical. I'm trying to establish a baseline of agreement before continuing. > > >> >> If the two are identical then their experiences are identical too and >>> so there is only one experience not two because the experience of John >>> Clark being alive is a adjective not a noun. Red is a adjective and car is >>> a noun, if there are 2 red cars there are 2 cars but only one red and if >>> one car is destroyed red still exists. Right now only one chunk of matter >>> in the universe behaves in a Johnclarkian way, but in your thought >>> experiment that is no longer true. >>> >> >> > In no duplication experiment is it even possible in principle for that >> to be true. You seem to be saying that duplication is impossible. >> > > I don't follow. > I don't want to get hung up on this point. The bigger point as I mentioned is that for the purposes of this thought experiment, trying to preserve identical copies is not important. > > >> > If it helps, let's say the door is at the end of a 1000ft hallway and >> the duplicator is on the opposite end. It will take you and/or your copy a >> minute to traverse the length. Enough time to begin arguing about which >> John Clark is going to be the sacrificial lamb. >> > > Assuming both bodies were at the end of identical 1000 foot hallways there > would not be two John Clark's but only one, and that would remain the case > until random quantum variations caused macroscopic changes in the 2 brains > and they started forming different thoughts. I don't know exactly how long > that would take but my guess would be more than a few seconds but less than > a few hours. So the logical thing to do would be to make a dash for that > door and open it as soon as possible before that divergence happens, > because once divergence happens there really would be two John Clark's and > only one can survive. Before divergence it wouldn't matter which hand > reached the door first, the only important thing is that the door be opened > fast. > > See above. We're not duplicating the room or hallway. Two copies of John Clark, separated by space, have to work out which of them will open the door so the other will survive. Terren > John K Clark > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
