On 12/13/2016 3:46 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
On 12 Dec 2016, at 19:36, Brent Meeker wrote:
On 12/12/2016 3:24 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote:
And the religionist, trying to keep their comfort and influence,
keep fuzzing up the target and spreading it out because it's center
keeps getting hit by facts.
Atheism is either agnostic, or is a religion: an ontological
commitment in something we have no evidence to explain away a
technical problem. The belief in 0 personal god together with the
belief in one impersonal God, (Primary matter) are religious
commitment, with the large sense of God.
"Atheism is a religion like bald is a hair color. Atheism is a
religion like OFF is a TV channel. Atheism is a religion like an
empty lot is a building..."
--- George Carlin
Correct for agnostic atheism.
False for the atheists who believe that there is no God (the gnostic
atheists).
That depends on what you mean by "God". As I've pointed out at length,
language is defined by usage and usage says that "God" means an immortal
person with supernatural power who wants, and deserves, to be
worshipped. You want to hijack the word and justify it by referring to
a handful of philosophers who also wanted to hijack the word to gain
popular credence for their ideas which actually had nothing in common
with the meaning of "God" except that it was fundamental in some sense.
Gnostic Atheists use all the time the confusion between ~[]g and []~g.
The difference between ~[]g and []~g is the real fracture between the
fanatic-radicals and the scientific attitude.
Here many confuse the existing evidences for a physical reality with
the non existing evidence for a primary matter. That confusion is
easy to explain by evolution-pressure, but that does not make it
true. Science is born with the doubt that Matter is the explanation.
God exist by definition for a Platonist: it is what the fundamental
researcher is searching: the reality (which is transcendental, we
cannot prove it exists) but can try theories ("first principles" in
the antic terming).
Too bad the Platonist can't be consistent in their skepticism.
Where?
You can't define things into existence.
That is what I just say. But that is what is done by pseudo-scientists
claiming that science is materialist.
A lot of science is materialist. Some science is sociological. Some is
cognitive. As Vic Stenger said, "Science isn't everything, but it's
about everything." Science is a method of obtaining objective (i.e.
sharable) knowledge.
You can search for what is fundamental, but that doesn't prove that
it exists.
We can only start from what we agree on, and to just define digital
mechanism, we must agree that 2+2 = 4, and Ex(x+2=4) and things like
that, taught in high school since a long time.
But that's not the same as agreeing they are fundamental rather than
descriptive.
Then the reasoning explains that matter and mind are phenomenological
appearance emerging, from 2+2=4 and alike. It works and is testable.
Physics works, but use contradictory statement to rely the equation
and the first person verification of the equation.
If it's contradictory then you should be able to prove anything from
it. Let's see you do it.
I have had recently a long discussion with an "atheist" who eventually
was forced, to make his point, to eliminate consciousness from the
picture, like Dennett and the Churchland did. He understood that a
notion of ontological matter simply does not work. It is equivalent
with God made it by violating the rules of logic.
There is no worry. Either digital mechanism is false, or physics will
relies on more solid base than observation and inductive inference.
But that's where Platonist suddenly drop their skepticism. There is no
reason to think logic is a more solid base than observation. Logic said
relativity must be wrong. Logic said quantum mechanics can't be that
way. Logic said there can only be five planets. In fact logic doesn't
"say" anything except "X and not-X" is false. Everything not
contradictory is possible, which is why Platonism is useless even if true.
Brent
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