On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 at 10:56 PM, John Clark <[email protected]> wrote: > On Mon, Jul 31, 2017 , Telmo Menezes <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > >> You are the one badmouthing Helsinki Clark, because you are talking >> about him as if he were a zombie without his own view of reality. > > > My hunch that > Helsinki Clark > is not a zombie is just as strong as my hunch that > Telmo Menezes > is not a zombie, but no stronger.
Sure, we already know we agree on that. >> > >> Helsinki Clark is perfectly capable of making a bet about what will >> happen next from his perspective. > > > I think I'm a better judge of what > Helsinki Clark > will do than you are, so tell me what the bet is (that has never been clear) > and who picks the > winners and losers > and what criteria they use to do so and I'll tell you if > Helsinki Clark > will take the bet or not. The bet that Helsinki Clark makes is on whether he finds himself on Moscow or not after the duplication. There will be a man waiting for him right at the door of the duplication machine in Moscow with his cash. On the door of the other machine there will be a debt collector. Seen from the outside, it's a zero-sum game. From the perspective of Moscow Clark, it's a win. From the perspective of Washington Clark, it's a loss. From the perspective of Helsinki Clark it's a 50/50. Maybe you feel strong empathy for the entire Clark community, and cannot really savor a win if you know that this means that another Clark will lose. Ok, but this doesn't change the fact that there is a first person view of the universe where a Clark experiences winning a bet after facing 50/50 uncertainty. Do you deny this? >> >> > >> he knows that we all >> >> experience reality from our own perspectives, > > > Yes. > > >> >> > >> and that this will lead >> >> to a moment in whatever thing is this that we call reality where he >> >> will have first-person (subjective) experiences of winning the bet. >> Or >> >> losing the bet. > > > Not if the bet was never made and a bet can't be made if nobody knows what > the bet > > is. The bet is: Washington or Moscow? Clark utters one if this words, and one of the future Clarks will have been right. If Clark refuses to open his mouth (to nobody's surprise), we throw a coin for him. >> >> >> > >> Moscow Clark will experience winning the >> >> bet > > > Then Washington Clark must have lost the bet. What was he lacking? More > important what was the bet?. > >> >> > >> Context-dependency IS THE ENTIRE POINT OF PRONOUNS. > > > Yes, > depending on context > > sometimes pronouns have meaning and sometimes they do not, and in a world > with people duplicating machines its far easier to write a sentence in which > they do not. Maybe, but it doesn't matter. We come equipped with powerful disambiguation protocols -- as long as there is good faith on the part of both interlocutors. Failing this it is hard indeed. >> > >> Even everything-list-Clark knows this, in fact he keeps saying >> >> that one's subjective experience is the probably important thing in >> >> the universe, and I agree > > > Then you agree that in thought experiments involving subjectivity it's > important to get it right. > > >> >> And we already >> have duplication machines, we call them uterus. > > > Don't be ridiculous. How am I being ridiculous exactly? The uterus produces new human beings, and they are indeed copies of their parents -- albeit with some mutations otherwise Darwinism wouldn't work. It's even worse, we don't refer to people by number. There are millions of people with repeated names. This creates a lot of potential for ambiguity. And yet... - Hey man, have you seen John? - Yeah, he went to the bar. - Who's "he"? - John. - Which John? etc etc Telmo. > John K Clark > > > >> >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
