2017-09-30 11:40 GMT+02:00 Bruno Marchal <[email protected]>: > > On 29 Sep 2017, at 19:39, John Clark wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 11:48 PM, Terren Suydam <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > >> This thought experiment must be analyzed from the first person perspective >> > > There is no *THE* > first person perspective > if > first person perspective > duplicating machines exist!!!!! It's the same blunder over and over and > over again. > > >> > >> (and by that I'm referring to the grammatical person >> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_person>). >> > > > I > would bet money that > the third grade English teacher > that > wrote that article did not have first person perspective > > duplicating machines > > in mind. > > >> > >> There is only one stream of consciousness, ever, >> > > Then why can't anybody *ever* tell me if that > one stream of consciousness > is in Moscow or Washington? > > > > Because that is non determinable from the first person point of you. Here > Terren won the point. (Like if this could change anything in your attitude > alas). > > Bruno >
just ask him to describe from a 1st pov what happens... like this: I'm in helsinki, I'm in front of a button, I close my eyes, I push on the button, and I open my eyes, and I am ... I see only one valid continuation of the text if written before pushing the button: -> in washington or in moscow. I see two valid continuations of the text given by the two copies if written after pushing the button: -> in washingtom -> in moscow What will never be valid if written before or after is this; -> in washington and in moscow. Because being in washington *and* moscow is not something that can be lived from the 1st pov. But JC will still blurry anything by either pretending it's 1st POV vanish from existense or that the answer is santa claus or obiwan kenobi... So the only real valid continuation here is to *stop* talking with him and about this. The last 10 years of this list is a circle dumb discussion between you and JC... JC has clearly destroyed the goal of this list, and you engaging him on this is just the way to perpetuate that troll forever... *he will never acknowledge anything*, he is a troll... that's his purpose, he doesn't *care* of what you're saying, he is just taking pride of destroying this place of discussion about everything theories (not only yours). As I see it, this list died 10 years ago, nothing interresting as come out of it since unfortunately... only infinite useless step 3 discussion with a troll. Quentin > > > > >> > >> despite the possibility of its bifurcation (no different from many-worlds) >> > > In > many-worlds > the meaning of personal pronouns are always clear, in Bruno's thought > experiment they never are. > > >> > >> The only reality a person experiences is the one inside their head. >> Thanks to this, we never have to get into pronouns > > > Then why is > Terren Suydam > unable to state > Terren Suydam > 's ideas without the constant use of personal pronouns and the misuse of > articles like "the" and "a"? > > > > >> You seem to have a hang-up that prevents you from adopting that >> perspective >> > > My > hang-up > is I don't know what > perspective > you're talking about and neither do you. > > >> > >> you compulsively return to questions about the objective reality, >> > > Objective reality is important but subjective reality is even more > important. There is only one objective reality but there are billions of > subjective realities, so a question about subjective reality needs to > specify which one it's referring to, and the way English grammar uses > personal pronouns just can't do that if people duplicating machines are in > the mix. > > >> > >> talking in terms of multiple consciousnesses, >> > > How can I not talk about > multiple consciousnesses > if you're talking about people duplicating machines? > > >> > >> and getting confused about the referents of grammatical conventions. >> > > I plead guilty to that charge, I am VERY confused > > about what you're talking about because you're using > grammatical conventions > just as people have been using for centuries, but for centuries there > has been no people duplicating machines. A century ago "What one and only > one city will I see tomorrow?" was a real question with a real answer > because the meaning of the personal pronoun "I" was clear, > but a century from now "Tomorrow > I > will see > one and only one city after I have become two, what is the name of that > one city I will see?" would just be ridiculous. > > Is it really your position that the English language will need > no modification on how it uses personal pronouns even > after people duplicating machines become common? > > >> > >> And you blame that gibberish on the thought experiment itself, >> > > If it's not gibberish then what in the world is the above "question" > asking? Who is the referent to the personal pronoun "I" in the phrase > > " > I > will see > tomorrow > " > if "I" am to be duplicated today? > > >> > >> you've lost the plot. >> > > Gibberish has no plot. > > > >> > >> If you want to continue this, great, but I'm not going to go around in >> circles >> > > You could still participate, you could just do what Bruno does and > chant the mantra "you confuse the 3p and the 1p", that won't take up much > of your time. > > > John K Clark > > > > > > > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > > > http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- All those moments will be lost in time, like tears in rain. (Roy Batty/Rutger Hauer) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
