On Wednesday, December 20, 2017 at 6:36:39 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 19 Dec 2017, at 20:08, agrays...@gmail.com <javascript:> wrote: > > > > On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 4:48:48 PM UTC, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 18 Dec 2017, at 00:34, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > That makes things worst. Toy will make physical outcomes directly > dependent of the consciousness/knowledge of the observer. > > > Why do you and Clark persist in this error? Collapse, if it occurs, does > NOT depend on human consciousness. > > > OK but what you said made it depending of consciousness. There is no > collapse possible with the SWE, so what is the collapse? All theories > introducing a collapse in between the consciousness of the observer and the > observed objects seem highly speculative to me. > > Measurement is just a specific instance of decoherence. There have been "effective measurements" for billions of years. Chert or flint carry cosmic ray tracks, which indicate particles (likely muons) had their wave functions reduced with the interaction of the rock material many millions of years ago. I have a hard time thinking that a geologist looking at this has performed a quantum measurement that reduces the wave function then and there. It does not do much to invoke life either, for I doubt that an unusually smart trilobite or cockroach in the Paleozoic epoch would perform a measurement with some conscious idea of QM.
The measurement apparatus is a large number of quantum states which interact with a quantum system in some prepared state. This then results in the outcome of the needle or needle state. Ultimately I see this as a process whereby a set of qubits, thought of as quantum symbol strings or sets, encode quantum numbers. This then leads to an axiomatic incompleteness of QM, or the Schrodinger wave equation. We then have a breakdown of the quantum postulates as a sort of incompleteness of physical axioms to predict an actual outcome. One does not need to invoke consciousness to understand this. Consciousness may however be some aspect of this self-reference. It then could be possible that in some subtle way consciousness plays some role in the physical universe. It might be in making measurements of physics in the earliest universe. This might serve to reduce quantum states appropriate for conscious life. Think of this as a sort of cosmic Wheeler Delayed Choice Experiment. There may be some ergodic principle at work as well, where an ensemble of IGUS/ET beings make measurements and the physical outcome is an mean of their measured outcomes. LC -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
