It is getting a bit late and was planning to respond more on this. The
nonlinear aspect to consciousness may well relevant. In fact consciousness
may have a lot to do with it with respect to chaos theory.
More later LC
On Monday, February 19, 2018 at 2:27:37 PM UTC-6, cdemorsella wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 3:56 AM, Lawrence Crowell
> On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 10:00:24 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote:
> On 2/18/2018 6:26 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
> Computers such as AlphaGo have complex algorithms for taking the rules of
> a game like chess and running through long Markov chains of game events to
> increase their data base for playing the game. There is not really anything
> about "knowing something" going on here. There is a lot of hype over AI
> these days, but I suspect a lot of this is meant to beguile people. I do
> suspect in time we will interact with AI as if it were intelligent and
> conscious. The really big changer though I think will be the neural-cyber
> interlink that will put brains as the primary internet nodes.
> Why would you suppose that when electronics have a signal speed ten
> million times faster than neurons? Presently neurons have an advantage in
> connection density and power dissipation; but I see no reason they can hold
> that advantage.
> I think it may come down to computers that obey the Church-Turing thesis,
> which is finite and bounded. Hofstadter's book *Godel Escher Bach* has a
> chapter Bloop, Floop, Gloop where the Bloop means bounded loop or a halting
> program on a Turing machine. Biology however is not Bloop, but is rather a
> web of processors that are more Floop, or free loop. The busy beaver
> algorithm is such a case, which grows in complexity with each step. The
> computation of many fractals is this as well, where the Mandelbrot set with
> each iteration on a certain scale needs refinement to another floating
> point precision and thus grows in huge complexity. These of course in
> practice halting because the programmer puts in by hand a stop. These are
> recursively enumerable, and their complement in a set theoretic sense are
> Godel loops or Gloop. For machines to have properties at least parallel to
> conscious behavior we really have to be running in at least Floop and maybe
> into Gloop.
> Not sure if this has been touched on in this thread but it seems to me
> that the emergent phenomenon of both self-awareness and consciousness
> depend on information hiding in some fundamental way. Both our self
> awareness and our conscious minds, which from our incomplete perspective
> seem to be innate and ever present (at least when we are awake) are
> themselves the emergent outcomes of a vast amount of neural networked
> activities that is exquisitely hidden from us. We are unaware of the
> Genesis of our own awareness.
> Evidence from MRI scans supports this conclusion that before we are aware
> of being aware of some objectively measurable external event, or before we
> experience having a thought, that the almost one hundred billion neurons
> crammed into our highly folded cortexual pizza pie stuffed inside our
> skulls have been very busy and chatty indeed. As the MRI scans indicate.
> We are aware of being aware and we experience conscious existence, but the
> process by which both our conscious experience and our own awareness of
> being arises within our minds is largely hidden from us.
> I think it is a fair and reasonable question to ask: Is information hiding
> a necessary an integral aspect of processes through which self-awareness
> and consciousness arise?
> In computer science the rather recent emergence of deep mind neural
> networks that are characterized by having many layers, of which only the
> input layer and output layer of neurons are directly measurable, while
> conversely the many other layers that are arrayed in the stack between them
> remain hidden offers some intriguing parallels that also seem to indicate a
> critical role for information hiding. The Google deep mind machine learned
> neural networks for image processing, for example, have 10 to 30 (or by now
> perhaps even more) stacked layers of artificial neurons, most of which are
> Because of the non-linearity of the processes in play within these
> artificial deep stacks of layered artificial neurons it is difficult to
> really know in any definitive manner exactly what is going on. The outcomes
> from experimenting on the statistically trained (or in the vernacular,
> machine learned) models, by for example tweaking training parameters to
> experimentally see how doing so effects the resulting outcomes and by
> also subsequently forensically analyzing any generated logs & other
> telemetry are often surprisingly beautiful dreamscapes that are not
> reducible to a series of algorithmic steps applied by the many hidden
> layers to whatever input signals that have been fed to the input layer of
> It seems to me that the emergence of consciousness & self awareness as
> well is exquisitely nonlinear in nature. And that this outcome
> characterized by being non-linear, itself depends on information hiding in
> order to be able to operate. Each successive layer in the stack is mostly
> unaware of the vast array of activities occurring on the layers beneath
> it... or above it for that matter.
> Would consciousness or self awareness even be possible without introducing
> information hiding in the deep stack through which these phenomena emerge?
> Personally I do not think we could be conscious or self aware without the
> multiple degrees of non-linearity introduced into the sensorial signal +
> triggered memory recall processing stream by the fire wall of information
> It is by hiding away, by far most of the processing stack from us that we
> experience this seemingly magical state of being. We emerge in a non linear
> manner from a hidden world that we are (for the most part) blithely unaware
> The fact that a very similar kind of process seems to be taking place in
> these stacked layers of artificial neurons most of which are hidden
> supports this thesis.
> Is information hiding in fact, necessary to the emergence of
> self-awareness & consciousness?
> This is the question I pose.
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