It is getting a bit late and was planning to respond more on this. The 
nonlinear aspect to consciousness may well relevant. In fact consciousness 
may have a lot to do with it with respect to chaos theory.

More later LC

On Monday, February 19, 2018 at 2:27:37 PM UTC-6, cdemorsella wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 3:56 AM, Lawrence Crowell
> < <javascript:>> wrote:
> On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 10:00:24 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote:
> On 2/18/2018 6:26 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
> Computers such as AlphaGo have complex algorithms for taking the rules of 
> a game like chess and running through long Markov chains of game events to 
> increase their data base for playing the game. There is not really anything 
> about "knowing something" going on here. There is a lot of hype over AI 
> these days, but I suspect a lot of this is meant to beguile people. I do 
> suspect in time we will interact with AI as if it were intelligent and 
> conscious. The really big changer though I think will be the neural-cyber 
> interlink that will put brains as the primary internet nodes.
> Why would you suppose that when electronics have a signal speed ten 
> million times faster than neurons?  Presently neurons have an advantage in 
> connection density and power dissipation; but I see no reason they can hold 
> that advantage.
> Brent
> I think it may come down to computers that obey the Church-Turing thesis, 
> which is finite and bounded. Hofstadter's book *Godel Escher Bach* has a 
> chapter Bloop, Floop, Gloop where the Bloop means bounded loop or a halting 
> program on a Turing machine. Biology however is not Bloop, but is rather a 
> web of processors that are more Floop, or free loop. The busy beaver 
> algorithm is such a case, which grows in complexity with each step. The 
> computation of many fractals is this as well, where the Mandelbrot set with 
> each iteration on a certain scale needs refinement to another floating 
> point precision and thus grows in huge complexity. These of course in 
> practice halting because the programmer puts in by hand a stop. These are 
> recursively enumerable, and their complement in a set theoretic sense are 
> Godel loops or Gloop. For machines to have properties at least parallel to 
> conscious behavior we really have to be running in at least Floop and maybe 
> into Gloop.
> LC
> Not sure if this has been touched on in this thread but it seems to me 
> that the emergent phenomenon of both self-awareness and consciousness 
> depend on information hiding in some fundamental way. Both our self 
> awareness and our conscious minds, which from our incomplete perspective 
> seem to be innate and ever present (at least when we are awake) are 
> themselves the emergent outcomes of a vast amount of neural networked 
> activities that is exquisitely hidden from us. We are unaware of the 
> Genesis of our own awareness. 
> Evidence from MRI scans supports this conclusion that before we are aware 
> of being aware of some objectively measurable external event, or before we 
> experience having a thought, that the almost one hundred billion neurons 
> crammed into our highly folded cortexual pizza pie stuffed inside our 
> skulls have been very busy and chatty indeed. As the MRI scans indicate.
> We are aware of being aware and we experience conscious existence, but the 
> process by which both our conscious experience and our own awareness of 
> being arises within our minds is largely hidden from us. 
> I think it is a fair and reasonable question to ask: Is information hiding 
> a necessary an integral aspect of processes through which self-awareness 
> and consciousness arise?
> In computer science the rather recent emergence of deep mind neural 
> networks that are characterized by having many layers, of which only the 
> input layer and output layer of neurons are directly measurable, while 
> conversely the many other layers that are arrayed in the stack between them 
> remain hidden offers some intriguing parallels that also seem to indicate a 
> critical role for information hiding. The Google deep mind machine learned 
> neural networks for image processing, for example, have 10 to 30 (or by now 
> perhaps even more) stacked layers of artificial neurons, most of which are 
> hidden.
> Because of the non-linearity of the processes in play within these 
> artificial deep stacks of layered artificial neurons it is difficult to 
> really know in any definitive manner exactly what is going on. The outcomes 
> from experimenting on the statistically trained (or in the vernacular, 
> machine learned) models, by for example tweaking training parameters to 
> experimentally see how doing so effects the resulting outcomes and by 
> also subsequently forensically analyzing any generated logs & other 
> telemetry are often surprisingly beautiful dreamscapes that are not 
> reducible to a series of algorithmic steps applied by the many hidden 
> layers to whatever input signals that have been fed to the input layer of 
> neurons.
> It seems to me that the emergence of consciousness & self awareness as 
> well is exquisitely nonlinear in nature. And that this outcome 
> characterized by being non-linear, itself depends on information hiding in 
> order to be able to operate. Each successive layer in the stack is mostly 
> unaware of the vast array of activities occurring on the layers beneath 
> it... or above it for that matter. 
> Would consciousness or self awareness even be possible without introducing 
> information hiding in the deep stack through which these phenomena emerge? 
> Personally I do not think we could be conscious or self aware without the 
> multiple degrees of non-linearity introduced into the sensorial signal + 
> triggered memory recall processing stream by the fire wall of information 
> hiding.
> It is by hiding away, by far most of the processing stack from us that we 
> experience this seemingly magical state of being. We emerge in a non linear 
> manner from a hidden world that we are (for the most part) blithely unaware 
> of.
> The fact that a very similar kind of process seems to be taking place in 
> these stacked layers of artificial neurons most of which are hidden 
> supports this thesis.
> Is information hiding in fact, necessary to the emergence of 
> self-awareness & consciousness?  
> This is the question I pose.
> -Chris
> e you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
> email to <javascript:>.
> To post to this group, send email to 
> <javascript:>.
> Visit this group at
> For more options, visit

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Everything List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email 
To post to this group, send email to
Visit this group at
For more options, visit

Reply via email to