It is getting a bit late and was planning to respond more on this. The 
nonlinear aspect to consciousness may well relevant. In fact consciousness 
may have a lot to do with it with respect to chaos theory.

More later LC

On Monday, February 19, 2018 at 2:27:37 PM UTC-6, cdemorsella wrote:
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 3:56 AM, Lawrence Crowell
> <goldenfield...@gmail.com <javascript:>> wrote:
> On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 10:00:24 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote:
>
>
>
> On 2/18/2018 6:26 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
>
> Computers such as AlphaGo have complex algorithms for taking the rules of 
> a game like chess and running through long Markov chains of game events to 
> increase their data base for playing the game. There is not really anything 
> about "knowing something" going on here. There is a lot of hype over AI 
> these days, but I suspect a lot of this is meant to beguile people. I do 
> suspect in time we will interact with AI as if it were intelligent and 
> conscious. The really big changer though I think will be the neural-cyber 
> interlink that will put brains as the primary internet nodes.
>
>
> Why would you suppose that when electronics have a signal speed ten 
> million times faster than neurons?  Presently neurons have an advantage in 
> connection density and power dissipation; but I see no reason they can hold 
> that advantage.
>
> Brent
>
>
> I think it may come down to computers that obey the Church-Turing thesis, 
> which is finite and bounded. Hofstadter's book *Godel Escher Bach* has a 
> chapter Bloop, Floop, Gloop where the Bloop means bounded loop or a halting 
> program on a Turing machine. Biology however is not Bloop, but is rather a 
> web of processors that are more Floop, or free loop. The busy beaver 
> algorithm is such a case, which grows in complexity with each step. The 
> computation of many fractals is this as well, where the Mandelbrot set with 
> each iteration on a certain scale needs refinement to another floating 
> point precision and thus grows in huge complexity. These of course in 
> practice halting because the programmer puts in by hand a stop. These are 
> recursively enumerable, and their complement in a set theoretic sense are 
> Godel loops or Gloop. For machines to have properties at least parallel to 
> conscious behavior we really have to be running in at least Floop and maybe 
> into Gloop.
>
> LC
>
> Not sure if this has been touched on in this thread but it seems to me 
> that the emergent phenomenon of both self-awareness and consciousness 
> depend on information hiding in some fundamental way. Both our self 
> awareness and our conscious minds, which from our incomplete perspective 
> seem to be innate and ever present (at least when we are awake) are 
> themselves the emergent outcomes of a vast amount of neural networked 
> activities that is exquisitely hidden from us. We are unaware of the 
> Genesis of our own awareness. 
>
> Evidence from MRI scans supports this conclusion that before we are aware 
> of being aware of some objectively measurable external event, or before we 
> experience having a thought, that the almost one hundred billion neurons 
> crammed into our highly folded cortexual pizza pie stuffed inside our 
> skulls have been very busy and chatty indeed. As the MRI scans indicate.
>
> We are aware of being aware and we experience conscious existence, but the 
> process by which both our conscious experience and our own awareness of 
> being arises within our minds is largely hidden from us. 
> I think it is a fair and reasonable question to ask: Is information hiding 
> a necessary an integral aspect of processes through which self-awareness 
> and consciousness arise?
>
> In computer science the rather recent emergence of deep mind neural 
> networks that are characterized by having many layers, of which only the 
> input layer and output layer of neurons are directly measurable, while 
> conversely the many other layers that are arrayed in the stack between them 
> remain hidden offers some intriguing parallels that also seem to indicate a 
> critical role for information hiding. The Google deep mind machine learned 
> neural networks for image processing, for example, have 10 to 30 (or by now 
> perhaps even more) stacked layers of artificial neurons, most of which are 
> hidden.
>
> Because of the non-linearity of the processes in play within these 
> artificial deep stacks of layered artificial neurons it is difficult to 
> really know in any definitive manner exactly what is going on. The outcomes 
> from experimenting on the statistically trained (or in the vernacular, 
> machine learned) models, by for example tweaking training parameters to 
> experimentally see how doing so effects the resulting outcomes and by 
> also subsequently forensically analyzing any generated logs & other 
> telemetry are often surprisingly beautiful dreamscapes that are not 
> reducible to a series of algorithmic steps applied by the many hidden 
> layers to whatever input signals that have been fed to the input layer of 
> neurons.
>
> It seems to me that the emergence of consciousness & self awareness as 
> well is exquisitely nonlinear in nature. And that this outcome 
> characterized by being non-linear, itself depends on information hiding in 
> order to be able to operate. Each successive layer in the stack is mostly 
> unaware of the vast array of activities occurring on the layers beneath 
> it... or above it for that matter. 
>
> Would consciousness or self awareness even be possible without introducing 
> information hiding in the deep stack through which these phenomena emerge? 
> Personally I do not think we could be conscious or self aware without the 
> multiple degrees of non-linearity introduced into the sensorial signal + 
> triggered memory recall processing stream by the fire wall of information 
> hiding.
>
> It is by hiding away, by far most of the processing stack from us that we 
> experience this seemingly magical state of being. We emerge in a non linear 
> manner from a hidden world that we are (for the most part) blithely unaware 
> of.
>
> The fact that a very similar kind of process seems to be taking place in 
> these stacked layers of artificial neurons most of which are hidden 
> supports this thesis.
>
> Is information hiding in fact, necessary to the emergence of 
> self-awareness & consciousness?  
>
> This is the question I pose.
>
> -Chris
>
>
>
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