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  On Thu, Feb 22, 2018 at 9:36 PM, Brent Meeker<meeke...@verizon.net> wrote:    
 
 On 2/22/2018 7:06 PM, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List wrote:
  

 
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  On Wed, Feb 21, 2018 at 1:37 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:    
  
 On 19 Feb 2018, at 21:27, 'Chris de Morsella' via Everything List 
<everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: 
  
  
 
  On Mon, Feb 19, 2018 at 3:56 AM, Lawrence Crowell 
<goldenfieldquaterni...@gmail.com> wrote:    On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 
10:00:24 PM UTC-6, Brent wrote: 
  
 
 On 2/18/2018 6:26 PM, Lawrence Crowell wrote:
  
 Computers such as AlphaGo have complex algorithms for taking the rules of a 
game  like chess and running through long Markov chains of game events to 
increase their data base for playing the game. There is not really anything 
about "knowing  something" going on here. There is a lot of hype over AI these 
days, but I suspect a lot of this is meant to beguile people. I do suspect in 
time we will interact with AI as if it were intelligent and conscious. The 
really big changer though I think will be the  neural-cyber interlink that will 
put brains as the primary internet nodes. 
 
 Why would you suppose that when electronics have a signal speed ten million 
times faster than neurons?  Presently neurons have an advantage in connection 
density and power dissipation; but I see no reason they can hold that advantage.
 
 Brent
  
 
  I think it may come down to computers that obey the Church-Turing thesis, 
which is finite and bounded.  Hofstadter's book Godel Escher Bach has a chapter 
Bloop, Floop, Gloop where the Bloop means bounded loop or a halting program on 
a Turing  machine. Biology however is not Bloop, but is rather a web of 
processors that are more Floop, or free loop. The busy beaver algorithm is such 
a case, which grows in complexity with each step. The  computation of many 
fractals is this as well, where the Mandelbrot set with each iteration on a 
certain scale needs refinement to another floating point precision and thus 
grows in huge  complexity. These of course in practice halting because the 
programmer puts in by hand a stop. These are recursively enumerable, and their 
complement in a set theoretic sense are Godel loops or Gloop. For machines to 
have properties at least parallel to conscious behavior we really have to be 
running in at least  Floop and maybe into Gloop. 
  LC 
  Not sure if this has been touched on in this thread but it seems to me that 
the emergent phenomenon  of both self-awareness and consciousness depend on 
information hiding in some fundamental way. Both our self awareness and our 
conscious minds, which from our incomplete perspective seem to be innate  and 
ever present (at least when we are awake) are themselves the emergent outcomes 
of a vast amount of neural networked activities that is exquisitely hidden from 
us. We are unaware of the  Genesis of our own awareness.  
  Evidence from MRI scans supports this conclusion that before we are aware of 
being aware of  some objectively measurable external event, or before we 
experience having a thought, that the almost one hundred billion neurons 
crammed into our highly folded cortexual pizza pie stuffed inside our skulls 
have been very busy and chatty indeed. As the MRI scans indicate. 
  We are aware of being aware and we experience conscious existence, but the 
process by which both  our conscious experience and our own awareness of being 
arises within our minds is largely hidden from us.  I think it is a fair and 
reasonable question to ask: Is information hiding a necessary an  integral 
aspect of processes through which self-awareness and consciousness arise? 
  In computer science the rather recent emergence of deep mind neural networks 
that are characterized  by having many layers, of which only the input layer 
and output layer of neurons are directly measurable, while conversely the many 
other layers that are arrayed in the stack between them  remain hidden offers 
some intriguing parallels that also seem to indicate a critical role for 
information hiding. The Google deep mind machine learned neural networks for 
image processing, for example, have 10 to 30 (or by now perhaps even more) 
stacked layers of artificial neurons, most of which are  hidden. 
  Because of the non-linearity of the processes in play within these artificial 
deep stacks of  layered artificial neurons it is difficult to really know in 
any definitive manner exactly what is going  on. The outcomes from 
experimenting on the statistically trained (or in the vernacular, machine 
learned) models, by for example tweaking training parameters to experimentally 
see how doing so  effects the resulting outcomes and by also subsequently 
forensically analyzing any generated logs & other telemetry are often 
surprisingly beautiful dreamscapes that are not reducible to a  series of 
algorithmic steps applied by the many hidden layers to whatever input signals 
that have been fed to the input layer of neurons. 
  It seems to me that the emergence of consciousness & self awareness as well 
is exquisitely nonlinear in nature. And that this outcome characterized by 
being non-linear, itself depends on information hiding in order to be able  to 
operate. Each successive layer in the stack is mostly unaware of the vast array 
of activities occurring on the layers beneath it... or above it for that 
matter.  
  Would consciousness or self awareness even be possible without introducing 
information hiding in the deep stack through which these phenomena emerge? 
Personally I do not think we could be conscious or self  aware without the 
multiple degrees of non-linearity introduced into the sensorial signal + 
triggered memory recall processing stream by the fire wall of information 
hiding. 
  It is by hiding away, by far most of the processing stack from us that we 
experience this seemingly magical state of being. We emerge in a non linear 
manner from a hidden world that we are (for the  most part) blithely unaware 
of. 
  The fact that a very similar kind of process seems to be taking place in 
these stacked layers of artificial neurons most of which are hidden supports 
this thesis. 
  Is information hiding in fact, necessary to the emergence of self-awareness & 
consciousness?   
  This is the question I pose.    
  
 The mechanist answer to this is “yes”. The more you have neurons, the less 
conscious you are. The brain is a filter of the (arithmetical) information. I 
will not insist now, as it is shocking and quite counter-intuitive, but 
somehow, the Löbian machine, which is more complex than the usual universal 
machine (she knows that she is universal) is more deluded, it soul is 
already”falling”, and it is less conscious. The math explains why the machine 
will tend to believe the contrary, and why nature benefits of that ignorance in 
some way. Now, the hidden information is not necessarily related to the hidden 
layers of a neural network, at least not at first sight. The  hiding is more 
logical/modal, at a deeper level, independent of the implementations used in 
the computation. 
  -------- In some ways, I think you are correct. One of the brain's functions 
is to throw out information that it decides is irrelevant or unimportant from 
it's own peculiar Darwinian perspective. It is a filter, and necessary one, in 
order to survive and thrive within the  sensorial onslaught of reality. 
Sometimes less is more. However though perhaps a spider may exist in a less 
filtered internal state of being than a mouse, I don't see how it is more 
conscious. Is an amoeba even more conscious then than a spider. Is the simplest 
most elementary particle the most conscious entity of all? 
  Now, I grant that consciousness & self-awareness may themselves be an 
elaborate and necessary, schism & illusion arising from and within the 
labrynthian neural networks of our brains and resulting in our hermetic selves 
being cutoff by the very act of self identification from the wellspring of a 
much vaster, deeper ineffable being. So in this particular sense  the very 
emergence of self identification becomes a veil that cuts us off from direct 
experience. We exist in reified mental constructs, inside a filtered 
mind-generated virtual reality. We don't see, hear, touch, smell or taste 
directly; instead we experience that which our mind serves up to us.     
 
 
 Then you're granting what nobody asked for.
 Whether we ask for it or not changes little in how our sense of self emerges 
from within. We do not control the process, we are the process. So not sure 
what you're saying.
-Chris
 Brent
 

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