On Monday, December 3, 2018 at 1:24:30 PM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>
>
> On 2 Dec 2018, at 13:24, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com <javascript:>> 
> wrote:
>
>
>
> On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 5:23:15 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 29 Nov 2018, at 20:00, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 10:27:00 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> On 27 Nov 2018, at 18:50, Philip Thrift <cloud...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 4:32:53 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 24 Nov 2018, at 17:27, John Clark <johnk...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Turing explained how matter can behave intelligently, 
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> No. He showed how a person can be attached to a computation, and also 
>>>> that physics is Turing complete, so that we can use matter to implement 
>>>> computations, like nature plausibly does. But it is not matter which 
>>>> behave 
>>>> intelligently: it is the person associated to the computation, and it 
>>>> behaves as well relatively to numbers than to matter. You use of matter is 
>>>> “magical”.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> If humans are matter (meaning of course that human brains are matter), 
>>> then *humans behave intelligently* means that (at least some) *matter 
>>> behaves intelligently*.  
>>>
>>>
>>> Like with a computer: some arrangement of some matter can emulate a 
>>> (universal) computation. That means that the physical laws are Turing 
>>> complete. 
>>>
>>> It does not mean that primary matter exists (see my reminding of what 
>>> this means in my answer to Brent, soon enough!).
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> It is not clear that Turing in his last ("morphogenesis") years thought 
>>> that the Turing machine was a complete definition of computing in nature.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> If mechanism is true, in principle, nature has more powerful processing 
>>> ability than any computer. Now, it could mean only that nature use a random 
>>> oracle, which would come only from our ignorance about which computations 
>>> run us, if I may say.
>>>
>>> Bruno
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>> Going by something Barry Cooper wrote
>>
>> *The intuition is that computational unconventionality certainly entails 
>> higher-type computation, with a correspondingly enhanced respect for 
>> embodied information. There is some understanding of the algorithmic 
>> content of descriptions. But so far we have merely scratched the surface.*
>>
>> "natural computing" may involve something that is non-Turing in a sense 
>> that doesn't involve actual oracles in the hyperarithmetical processing 
>> sense (but could involve topology: *We can say that topology is 
>> precisely about the relation between finiteness and infiniteness that is 
>> relevant to computation.* [ 
>> http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/papers/introduction-to-higher-order-computation-NLS-2017.pdf
>>  
>> ]).
>>
>>
>> I posit that *experience processing* is a "natural computing" that is 
>> non-Turing.
>>
>> This new article may be of interest:
>>
>>
>> "there are now many signs that consciousness-like phenomena might exist 
>> not just among humans or even great apes – but that insects might have 
>> them, too"
>> ] 
>> https://aeon.co/essays/inside-the-mind-of-a-bee-is-a-hive-of-sensory-activity
>>  
>> ]
>>
>>
>> I am OK with this. I am open that plants do think, somehow. What is 
>> provably inconsistent with digital mechanism is that consciousness is 
>> “natural” or a product of matter. That equates two different kind of 
>> mysteries, without adding light on Matter nor Consciousness. That might be 
>> true, but I don’t see any evidence for such a move. 
>>
>> Bruno
>>
>>
>>
> That consciousness is an "intrinsic" property of patter will be the 
> subject of
>
> Galileo's Error
> Foundations for a New Science of Consciousness
>
> by Philip Goff
> (coming from Penguin Random House)
>
>
>
>
> Please make an argument. Cite people only if you use an idea from them, 
> but present the idea and use it.
>
>
>
>
>
> What higher-order computing matter does is an open question. But there is 
> no evidence that there is any mathematical entity existing outside of 
> matter (the subject of science).
>
>
> There is no evidence that matter is primary, physicists measure numbers, 
> and then infer relation between those measurable numbers. 
>
>
> Why limiting science to matter? Matter is vey interesting, but if you 
> assume matter, you need indeed a non computationalist theory of matter and 
> of mind, which will need actual infinities, making hard to refute it 
> experimentally, which is not a good sign. 
>
> All matter theories assumes elementary arithmetic, you cannot avoid 
> assuming it when doping physics, so there is no need of assuming it outside 
> some primary matter. (I am the skeptical here).
>
> When assuming mechanism, we can’t assume more than arithmetic, without 
> empirical evidence for more, or we just make things harder to avoid solving 
> problems (that can prevent science).
>
> I claim no truth, I just show that we can test experimentally between 
> mechanism and materialism (shown incompatible), and that the current 
> evidences favour mechanism. I give the means to test if there is more than 
> numbers, and the test not only found nothing, but found what we need to 
> explain the appearances without doing an ontological commitment.
>
> Bruno
>
>
"physicists measure numbers" *isn't the case* from the perspective of 
"numbers do not exist".
- https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/fictionalism-mathematics/
(Numbers belong to a Platonic realm. They do not exist in nature.)

Physicists make instruments and get readings from them which they record in 
a language of "numbers".

I don't know if we need matter that *hypercomputes* (like the hypothetical 
black hole computer) , or
1. *higher-order computing* (computations with infinite objects 
[ 
http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/papers/introduction-to-higher-order-computation-NLS-2017.pdf
 
])
2. *experience processing* (programming with experiential semantics 
[ https://codicalist.wordpress.com/2018/10/14/experience-processing/ ]).
are enough.

- pt


 

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