> On 2 Dec 2018, at 13:24, Philip Thrift <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On Sunday, December 2, 2018 at 5:23:15 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 29 Nov 2018, at 20:00, Philip Thrift <[email protected] <javascript:>> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, November 29, 2018 at 10:27:00 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 27 Nov 2018, at 18:50, Philip Thrift <[email protected] <>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Tuesday, November 27, 2018 at 4:32:53 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> >>>> On 24 Nov 2018, at 17:27, John Clark <[email protected] <>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> Turing explained how matter can behave intelligently, >>> >>> No. He showed how a person can be attached to a computation, and also that >>> physics is Turing complete, so that we can use matter to implement >>> computations, like nature plausibly does. But it is not matter which behave >>> intelligently: it is the person associated to the computation, and it >>> behaves as well relatively to numbers than to matter. You use of matter is >>> “magical”. >>> >>> >>> >>> If humans are matter (meaning of course that human brains are matter), then >>> humans behave intelligently means that (at least some) matter behaves >>> intelligently. >> >> Like with a computer: some arrangement of some matter can emulate a >> (universal) computation. That means that the physical laws are Turing >> complete. >> >> It does not mean that primary matter exists (see my reminding of what this >> means in my answer to Brent, soon enough!). >> >> >> >> >>> >>> It is not clear that Turing in his last ("morphogenesis") years thought >>> that the Turing machine was a complete definition of computing in nature. >> >> >> If mechanism is true, in principle, nature has more powerful processing >> ability than any computer. Now, it could mean only that nature use a random >> oracle, which would come only from our ignorance about which computations >> run us, if I may say. >> >> Bruno >> >> >> >> >> >> Going by something Barry Cooper wrote >> >> The intuition is that computational unconventionality certainly entails >> higher-type computation, with a correspondingly enhanced respect for >> embodied information. There is some understanding of the algorithmic content >> of descriptions. But so far we have merely scratched the surface. >> >> "natural computing" may involve something that is non-Turing in a sense that >> doesn't involve actual oracles in the hyperarithmetical processing sense >> (but could involve topology: We can say that topology is precisely about the >> relation between finiteness and infiniteness that is relevant to >> computation. [ >> http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/papers/introduction-to-higher-order-computation-NLS-2017.pdf >> >> <http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~mhe/papers/introduction-to-higher-order-computation-NLS-2017.pdf> >> ]). >> >> >> I posit that experience processing is a "natural computing" that is >> non-Turing. >> >> This new article may be of interest: >> >> >> "there are now many signs that consciousness-like phenomena might exist not >> just among humans or even great apes – but that insects might have them, too" >> ] >> https://aeon.co/essays/inside-the-mind-of-a-bee-is-a-hive-of-sensory-activity >> >> <https://aeon.co/essays/inside-the-mind-of-a-bee-is-a-hive-of-sensory-activity> >> ] > > I am OK with this. I am open that plants do think, somehow. What is provably > inconsistent with digital mechanism is that consciousness is “natural” or a > product of matter. That equates two different kind of mysteries, without > adding light on Matter nor Consciousness. That might be true, but I don’t see > any evidence for such a move. > > Bruno > > > > That consciousness is an "intrinsic" property of patter will be the subject of > > Galileo's Error > Foundations for a New Science of Consciousness > > by Philip Goff > (coming from Penguin Random House)
Please make an argument. Cite people only if you use an idea from them, but present the idea and use it. > > > What higher-order computing matter does is an open question. But there is no > evidence that there is any mathematical entity existing outside of matter > (the subject of science). There is no evidence that matter is primary, physicists measure numbers, and then infer relation between those measurable numbers. Why limiting science to matter? Matter is vey interesting, but if you assume matter, you need indeed a non computationalist theory of matter and of mind, which will need actual infinities, making hard to refute it experimentally, which is not a good sign. All matter theories assumes elementary arithmetic, you cannot avoid assuming it when doping physics, so there is no need of assuming it outside some primary matter. (I am the skeptical here). When assuming mechanism, we can’t assume more than arithmetic, without empirical evidence for more, or we just make things harder to avoid solving problems (that can prevent science). I claim no truth, I just show that we can test experimentally between mechanism and materialism (shown incompatible), and that the current evidences favour mechanism. I give the means to test if there is more than numbers, and the test not only found nothing, but found what we need to explain the appearances without doing an ontological commitment. Bruno > > - pt > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected] > <mailto:[email protected]>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
