On Mon, Dec 10, 2018 at 11:36 AM <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 3:48:28 PM UTC, Jason wrote: >> >> >> >> On Monday, December 10, 2018, <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Monday, December 10, 2018 at 2:43:59 AM UTC, Jason wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 2:02 PM Philip Thrift <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Sunday, December 9, 2018 at 9:36:39 AM UTC-6, Jason wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Sun, Dec 9, 2018 at 2:53 AM Philip Thrift <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Saturday, December 8, 2018 at 2:27:45 PM UTC-6, Jason wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I think truth is primitive. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Jason >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> As a matter of linguistics (and philosophy), *truth* and *matter* >>>>>>> are linked: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "As a matter of fact, ..." >>>>>>> "The truth of the matter is ..." >>>>>>> "It matters that ..." >>>>>>> ... >>>>>>> [ https://www.etymonline.com/word/matter ] >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> I agree they are linked. Though matter may be a few steps removed >>>>>> from truth. Perhaps one way to interpret the link more directly is >>>>>> thusly: >>>>>> >>>>>> There is an equation whose every solution (where the equation happens >>>>>> to be *true*, e.g. is satisfied when it has certain values assigned >>>>>> to its variables) maps its variables to states of the time evolution of >>>>>> the >>>>>> wave function of our universe. You might say that we (literally not >>>>>> figuratively) live within such an equation. That its truth reifies what >>>>>> we >>>>>> call matter. >>>>>> >>>>>> But I think truth plays an even more fundamental roll than this. >>>>>> e.g. because the following statement is *true* "two has a successor" >>>>>> then there exists a successor to 2 distinct from any previous number. >>>>>> Similarly, the *truth* of "9 is not prime" implies the existence of >>>>>> a factor of 9 besides 1 and 9. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Schopenhauer 's view: "A judgment has *material truth* if its >>>>>>> concepts are based on intuitive perceptions that are generated from >>>>>>> sensations. If a judgment has its reason (ground) in another judgment, >>>>>>> its >>>>>>> truth is called logical or formal. If a judgment, of, for example, pure >>>>>>> mathematics or pure science, is based on the forms (space, time, >>>>>>> causality) >>>>>>> of intuitive, empirical knowledge, then the judgment has transcendental >>>>>>> truth." >>>>>>> [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Truth ] >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> I guess I am referring to transcend truth here. Truth concerning the >>>>>> integers is sufficient to yield the universe, matter, and all that we see >>>>>> around us. >>>>>> >>>>>> Jason >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> In my view there is basically just *material* (from matter) truth and >>>>> *linguistic* (from language) truth. >>>>> >>>>> [ https://codicalist.wordpress.com/2018/06/18/to-tell-the-truth/ ] >>>>> >>>>> Relations and functions are linguistic: relational type theory (RTT) , >>>>> functional type theory (FTT) languages. >>>>> >>>>> Numbers are also linguistic beings, the (fictional) semantic objects >>>>> of Peano arithmetic (PA). >>>>> >>>>> Numbers can be "materialized" via *nominalization *(cf. Hartry Field, >>>>> refs. in [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartry_Field ]). >>>>> >>>>> >>>> Assuming the primacy of matter assumes more and explains less, than >>>> assuming the primacy of arithmetical truth. >>>> >>> >>> Since one cannot derive QM from arithmetic alone -- one needs additional >>> postulates -- it's a fallacy to think everything is derivable from >>> arithmetic. AG >>> >>>> >>>> >> The above statement is false. >> >> With arithmetic alone (even peano arithmetic) you get the emulations of >> all possible programs. Under the current leading theory of consciousness >> by those who study the problem, that computation yields every possible >> conscious state, including that of your own, in this moment right now, >> believing yourself to be in a universe ruled by quantum mechanics. >> >> The appearance of a multiverse is itself a direct consequence of every >> possibility being realized by every program execution. >> > > *So every possible program executes or has executed, giving rise to (the > illusion of) matter? But how does a program execute in the absence of > matter, which seems to be what you're demanding? AG* > >> >> Do you agree that "7 is prime" is true, even without a computer executing it or proving it?
If so, then do you agree that for positive integers k and x, that "(k*k - k*x - x*x)^2 - 1 = 0" is true only when x is a Fibonacci number, and k is the preceding Fibonacci number or 0? Do you further agree that the above statement remains true, regardless of whether or not a physical computer enumerates every possible k and x value and checking the equation? Then you have a case where mathematical truth, the truth of that equation, enumerates all the Fibonacci numbers (an example of computation). The MRDP theorem <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diophantine_set#Matiyasevich's_theorem>, proved in 1970, established that there are integer equations that enumerate everything that is computable. This means there are equations that when true, enumerate every program and its output, that enumerate the intermediate states of each programs, equations that list all the moves Deep Blue would make in chess, and equations that enumerate successive states of a universe ruled by QM. The existence of these computations in mathematics is undeniable in the same sense that "7 is prime" is undeniable. You can't accept one without accepting the other. So if the primality of 7 does not depend on a physical computer checking it, then neither does the existence of all computations depend on a physical computer executing them. Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
