On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 5:55:13 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 11:41:13 PM UTC, Philip Thrift wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 5:21:15 PM UTC-6, agrays...@gmail.com >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 11:13:10 PM UTC, Philip Thrift wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 3:30:46 PM UTC-6, >>>> agrays...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 6:57:33 PM UTC, Philip Thrift wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wednesday, December 12, 2018 at 10:07:13 AM UTC-6, Bruno Marchal >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On 11 Dec 2018, at 20:53, agrays...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 7:30:32 PM UTC, Philip Thrift wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 1:02:52 PM UTC-6, >>>>>>>> agrays...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 6:44:34 PM UTC, Philip Thrift >>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, December 11, 2018 at 12:32:51 PM UTC-6, >>>>>>>>>> agrays...@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> * As for physicists being materialists in the sense of believing >>>>>>>>>>> there is nothing underlying matter as its cause, I have never heard >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> position articulated by any physicist, in person or on the >>>>>>>>>>> Internet. AG * >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Victor Stenger >>>>>>>>>> *Materialism Deconstructed?* >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.huffingtonpost.com/victor-stenger/materialism-deconstructed_b_2228362.html >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> *I was once a member of Vic's discussion group. Vic believed in >>>>>>>>> the reality of matter, in the sense that if you kick it, it kicks >>>>>>>>> back. But >>>>>>>>> he didn't deny the possibility that there could be something more >>>>>>>>> fundamental underlying matter. This denial is what Bruno claims is >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> materialist position, but it surely wasn't Vic's position. You know >>>>>>>>> this, >>>>>>>>> of course, being a member of that group. Right? AG* >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> - pt >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I hosted Vic in Dallas in 2014 for a talk. I got to know him fairly >>>>>>>> personally . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Homages to philosophical materialism ("matter is the fundamental >>>>>>>> substance in nature") is in his books. *Timeless Reality* in >>>>>>>> particular. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> One can be open-minded, or *ironist *in Rorty's definition [ >>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ironism ], and he was that. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> But despite all the "models" talk, I would confidently say he was >>>>>>>> always a hardcore materialist. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> - pt >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Show me one instance, just one, where Vic denied something causal >>>>>>> and unknown underlying the existence of matter? This is Bruno's model >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> materialism among physicists but it clearly doesn't apply to Vic. AG >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> You might read my favorite book by Vic, which is “The comprehensible >>>>>>> cosmos”. There, it shows something very platonist-like: he shows that >>>>>>> physics can be derived from few principles. Unfortunately, he seems to >>>>>>> ignore the mind-body problem, and so he does not explain how that >>>>>>> physical >>>>>>> reality can select our consciousness in way corresponding to what we >>>>>>> observe. So there is still a bit of magic in his explanation, or of >>>>>>> lack of >>>>>>> rigour (by not seeing that he uses some non-mechanist theory to allow a >>>>>>> physical reality to do that selection, instead of deducing his first >>>>>>> physical principle from arithmetic and machine’s psychology, as we have >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> do with mechanism. That is even more apparent in his less interesting >>>>>>> books >>>>>>> like “God the paling hypothesis, (where I agree with the content, but >>>>>>> find >>>>>>> it bad because he identifies theology with the current theology which >>>>>>> assumes a creator but also a creation). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> So Vic approach is still materialist or at least physicalist. But he >>>>>>> was on the right track, and would have understood that his attempt to >>>>>>> comprehend the cosmos was only a beginning: to work well, he would need >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> derive the cosmos from machine statistical experience in arithmetic. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Bruno >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> It is interesting that you raise the part of Stenger's writings that >>>>>> have to do with things like symmetry, point-of-view invariance (POVI) in >>>>>> the foundations of physics. That is the part I didn't get at all at the >>>>>> time (now some years ago) and I don't get it (I reject it) even more >>>>>> now. >>>>>> It was like *So you are a Platonist now?* :) >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *I brought up POVI, not Bruno who IS a Platonist. POVI is simple; >>>>> there can no "laws of physics" to discover if they depend on which >>>>> direction one is looking. AG* >>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> - pt >>>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chirality_(chemistry) ? >>>> >>> >>> What's your point? AG >>> >>>> >>>> - pt >>>> >>> >> >> >> If laws of physics have to have "directional symmetry" (a leap of faith), >> then why don't the laws of chemistry? >> > > *No faith involved; just common sense, possibly with a few exceptions. > What value would Newtonian gravity have for space probes if the equations > depended on the direction of observation? AG * > >> >> Science (the study of all the natural world) is more than just physics. >> There is chemistry and biology, for example, as well. >> >> - pt >> >
But what about Einsteinian relativity and gravity where rulers are bent, shrunk, and lengthened? - pt -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
