On Saturday, December 29, 2018 at 12:28:58 AM UTC, Bruce wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 11:17 AM John Clark <[email protected] > <javascript:>> wrote: > >> On Fri, Dec 28, 2018 at 4:53 PM Bruce Kellett <[email protected] >> <javascript:>> wrote: >> >> >> If the creation of the inflaton required conditions that existed when >>>> the universe was 10^-44 seconds old and inflation had decayed away when it >>>> was 10^-35 seconds old then the particle associated with the inflation >>>> field would have decayed away too and we wouldn't expect to see it today >>>> even at places where we can reproduce conditions the universe was in when >>>> it was 10^-17 seconds old. If it still existed it would still be strongly >>>> connected to regular matter but we could not detect it but the universe >>>> could and would still be expanding at an exponential rate and galaxies >>>> stars and planets would not exist, we couldn't detect it because we >>>> wouldn't exist either. >>>> >>> >>> *> Very good reasons for saying that no such field or particle exists, >>> or have ever existed.* >>> >> >> Or has ever existed? How do you figure that? >> > > If they had ever existed, they would couple strongly to ordinary matter, > and we would see such inflatons now. We don't, which is a very good reason > for saying that they do not exist -- now or ever. > >> >> *> I hope you understand the difference between thermal fluctuations and >>> quantum fluctuations....* >>> >> >> The thermal fluctuations that have been actually observed in the Cosmic >> Microwave Background Radiation is consistent with them being caused by >> random quantum fluctuations. Do you have an explanation for these >> variations in temperature that does not involve random quantum >> fluctuations? >> > > There are no such things as such quantum fluctuations: such fluctuations > would be local, and violate energy conservation. >
*If you measure the energy of a region repeatedly, the measurements will vary due to the UP. How is this a violation of energy conservation? It would be if it were explained by "borrowing" of energy for short times, but these measurements in fact vary, so IMO it's not a violation of energy conservation unless one appeals to the fallacious explanation of "borrowing". Moreover, how can these variations, or fluctuations in energy be independent of temperature fluctuations as you seem to suggest? AG* *Incidentally, I hope you understand that when I refer to you as "the Oracle from Australia", it's in fact complimentary; a jocular compliment recognized by those with a sardonic sense of humor. AG* *> But energy is exactly conserved locally.* > True but Irrelevant. Were talking about the most non-local thing we can observe, the Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation. Before inflation all parts of the CMB were locally connected and reached thermal equilibrium, but even so due to quantum variation you could have found slight differences in temperature if you had a sensitive enough thermometer and looked at a small enough volume. > > But you have just described seeing thermal fluctuations. Collections of > particles in thermal equilibrium still show random fluctuations on the > smallest scales -- Boltzmann distribution and all that. > > Bruce > > >> But then after everything had expanded faster than light for 10^-35 >> seconds and doubled in size 100 times things that were once causally >> connected no longer were, that is to say they were no longer local and >> never would be again. And then after things had expanded for another >> 380,000 years at the far more sedate pace we see today we'd expect those >> super tiny spots of slightly higher and lower temperature (2.724K to 2.726 >> K) would no longer be super tiny, but none of them would be larger than >> 380,000 light years across, and that's just what we do see. >> >> John K Clark >> > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
