> On 29 Apr 2019, at 18:11, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List > <everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > > On Monday, 29 April 2019 17:03:53 UTC+3, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 29 Apr 2019, at 08:44, 'Cosmin Visan' via Everything List >> <everyth...@googlegroups.com <javascript:>> wrote: >> >> You cannot invalidate the fact that consciousness is all there is, because >> for any fact X that you assume that you discover, that X is a thought in >> consciousness. > > But I don’t see why this invalidate that there would be something more than > my consciousness, for example the possible consciousness of some other. > > > Yes, there are other consciousness. But that's all, because existence itself > can only be ontologically subjective.
Why? In particular, if you grant the consciousness of other person, that consciousness is not personal-subjective, for me. I need some amount of “independent reality” from me to allow some other to exist. > > >> I don't see where I borrow anything from materialist ideas. Evolution is >> deducible directly from looking at qualia. There are no "bodies" that >> evolve, but consciousnesses that evolve. > > That is what you have to elaborate. I can interpret this favourably (in the > mechanist frame) or not. It is a bit too much vague, as I expect, actually, > from a theory which assumes consciousness. > > Just look at human psychology. It is solely for survival and reproduction. > All our emotion qualia serve these purposes. ? (That would make consciousness not being fundamental, contrary to your axiom) > For example look at the users which their beliefs are being threatened how > they become aggressive. This is because instinctively they feel that their > alpha male domination is being threatened by another male, so they jump to > kill him. So all these emotion qualia couldn't have otherwise appeared just > by evolution. Why? > All the evolutionary history is included in present day qualia that we have. > If you want to find out how the Earth was 1 billion years ago, ask yourself > what does the smell of pineapple means for example, and you will find that > the quale of pineapple smell has a particular evolutionary reason why it is > the way it is. ? That is unclear to me. I know you will not do it, but formalising in first order logic would clarify a lot. Now, you can’t do that if mechanism is true, because consciousness is necessarily not a formal concept, but a semantical one, and the whole point of formalising is to not start from a semantic. You seem to condemn yourself into a fuzzy theory. Frankly, consciousness and matter is what I want to explain/understand, and the mechanist assumption makes possible to build a testable theory, so let us do the test, and only invoke things like god, consciousness, reality, or alien in last ressort, if the experience violate all expressible theories. Bruno > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "Everything List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com>. > To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com > <mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>. > Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list > <https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list>. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout > <https://groups.google.com/d/optout>. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
