All software that has ever run has run on computers made of materials and assembled in factories.
There is no *spiritual/heavenly realm *- as fat as I know - where software is running. Can you show me such a place? Have you seen it? @philipthrift On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 9:33:58 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: > > What happened to "only brains can be conscious"? > > Are you familiar with virtual machines? Machines simulated in software? > > On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 10:10 AM <[email protected] <javascript:>> wrote: > >> >> >> The general response here is that there has never existed a program that >> has executed outside a computer. And computers are made of matter. >> >> Now one can generalize "computer": There were things like the abacus and >> slide rule, that executed "programs". Or one executes programs in the head >> (so to speak). But this is the brain,. Again, matter. Or one takes one's >> hand and a pencil or pen and executes a program on a piece of paper. >> Again. all matter >> >> Now one can watch a movie (like 2001 with the HAL 9000) or read a book >> of fiction where there is a program running on a some computer. But this is >> a fictional story. >> >> One can imagine a program running on an imaginary computer, but this >> imagining is all done in the brain. Matter. >> >> But give me an example of a program running in a "matter free" >> environment: No brains, hands, pencils, computers, abacuses, slide rules, >> around. >> >> Is it like some ghost out on its own in some immaterial realm? >> >> >> @philipthift >> >> >> >> On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 8:27:35 AM UTC-5, Terren Suydam wrote: >>> >>> One way to get around this is to hold that consciousness is associated >>> with the way information is processed. This is substrate independent - the >>> fact that a brain is physical is beside the point. You could implement a >>> brain in software, and insofar as the same kinds of information processing >>> occur, it would be conscious in the same kind of way. >>> >>> I find this idea compelling because it makes the link between brains and >>> consciousness without requiring matter, and provides a framework for >>> understanding consciousnesses of other kinds of machines. All that's >>> required is to assume there is something it is like for computation to >>> occur. >>> >>> Terren >>> >>> On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 2:26 AM <[email protected]> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 8:03:52 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On 5/2/2019 4:55 PM, [email protected] wrote: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, May 2, 2019 at 5:37:26 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On 5/2/2019 11:39 AM, [email protected] wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Apparently *matter* is not "reducible" to just the physics a couple >>>>>> of particles. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Then you're not a materialist. You think there is matter plus >>>>>> something else, that everyone calls "mind", but you're going to call it >>>>>> "matter" and add it to everyone else's list of matter so you can still >>>>>> call >>>>>> yourself a materialist. >>>>>> >>>>>> Brent >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> But everything reducing to the physics of particles is thought of as >>>>> *physicalism* (not materialism): >>>>> *Physicalism and materialism* >>>>> >>>>> Reductive physicalism >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reductive_physicalism>...is normally >>>>> assumed to be incompatible with panpsychism. Materialism >>>>> <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism>, if held to be distinct >>>>> from physicalism, is compatible with panpsychism insofar as mental >>>>> properties >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> What mental properties? intention? reflection? remembering? That's >>>>> what I mean by saying attributing "experience" to matter is an >>>>> unprincipled >>>>> half-measure. >>>>> >>>>> Brent >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> Brains are matter, just as livers, legs, trees, tables, rocks, comets, >>>> planets, stars, cockroaches, galaxies, bacteria .. are matter. >>>> >>>> Brains produce intentions, reflections, remembrances, ... . >>>> >>>> So (at least some) matter of the cosmos has psychical (mental) >>>> properties. >>>> >>>> The body+mind idea, the idea that mind is something separate from body, >>>> is perhaps the worst idea ever invented. >>>> >>>> @philipthrift >>>> >>>> >>>> >> -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
