> > >>> >>> > We do know that some synthetic-biological objects (SBOs) exist that are > conscious: Us. > > Except here the material synthesis was accomplished via natural selection, > not bay a team of scientists and engineers. >
Do you think if a team of engineers in a lab built a human from scratch, using the same materials, that it would be conscious? > > An android that came with a resume outlining its manufacturing via > sufficiently synthetic-biological processes and said "I am conscious" might > be believed. > What if it were non-biological? > We could cut it open, but that would not be nice. > Your statement reminds me a bit of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjCytqku18M > > There are several alternatives to our biochemistry, of course [ > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry ], even > involving silicon*. (This is about the 20th time I have posted this.) > > But I claim that no zillion-processor Intel Core computer (that ultimately > runs programs compiled to Intel machine code) can be conscious. I also > claim God does not exist. > > It is this context that [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_room ] is > correct. > > "The Chinese room argument holds that an executing program cannot [have] > consciousness, regardless of how intelligently or human-like the program > may make the computer behave." > > The Chinese Room Argument was thoroughly debunked by over a dozen critiquers before it was published. It has numerous flaws, none of which were addressed between the time he received the critiques and when Searle published. A few examples: - It confuses the "processor" for the system as a whole. This would be like confusing the laws of physics for the human brain. The laws of physics is the substrate by which the brain states are processed and updated, but you would not ascribe the consciousness to the laws of physics. - It assumes there is only one mind in the room, the human operator. But this quickly falls upon closer inspection, if you interview the "chinese speaking mind" you find that the opinions of this other mind are not the opinions of the english speaking human operator. > * Silicon biochemistry > See also: Organosilicon <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organosilicon> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Silane.png> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Silane.png> > Structure of silane <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silane>, analog of > methane <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methane> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PDMS.svg> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:PDMS.svg> > Structure of the silicone polydimethylsiloxane > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polydimethylsiloxane> (PDMS) > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diatom2.jpg> > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Diatom2.jpg> > Marine diatoms <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatoms>—carbon-based > organisms that extract silicon from sea water, in the form of its oxide > (silica) and incorporate it into their cell walls > > The silicon atom has been much discussed as the basis for an alternative > biochemical system, because silicon has many chemical properties > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_property> similar to those of > carbon and is in the same group of the periodic table > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_(periodic_table)>, the carbon group > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_group>. Like carbon, silicon can > create molecules that are sufficiently large to carry biological > information.[10] > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-Pace-10> > > However, silicon has several drawbacks as an alternative to carbon. > Silicon, unlike carbon, lacks the ability to form chemical bonds with > diverse types of atoms as is necessary for the chemical versatility > required for metabolism, and yet this precise inability is what makes > silicon less susceptible to bond with all sorts of impurities from which > carbon, in comparison, is not shielded. Elements creating organic > functional groups with carbon include hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, > phosphorus, sulfur, and metals such as iron, magnesium, and zinc. Silicon, > on the other hand, interacts with very few other types of atoms.[10] > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-Pace-10> > Moreover, > where it does interact with other atoms, silicon creates molecules that > have been described as "monotonous compared with the combinatorial universe > of organic macromolecules".[10] > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-Pace-10> > This > is because silicon atoms are much bigger, having a larger mass > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass> and atomic radius > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atomic_radius>, and so have difficulty > forming double bonds (the double-bonded carbon is part of the carbonyl > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonyl> group, a fundamental motif of > carbon-based bio-organic chemistry). > > Silanes <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silanes>, which are chemical > compounds <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_compound>of hydrogen > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen> and silicon that are analogous > to the alkane <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alkane> hydrocarbons > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocarbon>, are highly reactive with > water <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_(molecule)>, and long-chain > silanes spontaneously decompose. Molecules incorporating polymers > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polymer> of alternating silicon and oxygen > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen> atoms instead of direct bonds > between silicon, known collectively as silicones > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicone>, are much more stable. It has > been suggested that silicone-based chemicals would be more stable than > equivalent hydrocarbons in a sulfuric-acid-rich environment, as is found in > some extraterrestrial locations.[11] > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-world-building-11> > > Of the varieties of molecules identified in the interstellar medium > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstellar_medium> as of 1998, 84 are > based on carbon, while only 8 are based on silicon.[12] > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-12> > Moreover, > of those 8 compounds, 4 also include carbon within them. The cosmic > abundance > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_the_chemical_elements> of > carbon to silicon is roughly 10 to 1. This may suggest a greater variety of > complex carbon compounds throughout the cosmos, providing less of a > foundation on which to build silicon-based biologies, at least under the > conditions prevalent on the surface of planets. Also, even though Earth > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth> and other terrestrial planets > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrestrial_planet> are exceptionally > silicon-rich and carbon-poor (the relative abundance of silicon to carbon > in Earth's crust is roughly 925:1), terrestrial life is carbon-based. The > fact that carbon is used instead of silicon may be evidence that silicon is > poorly suited for biochemistry on Earth-like planets. Reasons for which may > be that silicon is less versatile than carbon in forming compounds, that > the compounds formed by silicon are unstable, and that it blocks the flow > of heat.[13] > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-BC-13> > > Even so, biogenic silica <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biogenic_silica> is > used by some Earth life, such as the silicate > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicate> skeletal structure of diatoms > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diatom>. According to the clay hypothesis > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis#Clay_hypothesis> of A. G. > Cairns-Smith <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graham_Cairns-Smith>, > silicate minerals in water played a crucial role in abiogenesis > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abiogenesis>: they replicated their > crystal structures, interacted with carbon compounds, and were the > precursors of carbon-based life.[14] > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-14> > [15] > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-15> > > Although not observed in nature, carbon–silicon bonds have been added to > biochemistry by using directed evolution (artificial selection). A heme > containing cytochrome *c* protein from *Rhodothermus marinus* has been > engineered using directed evolution to catalyze the formation of new > carbon–silicon bonds between hydrosilanes and diazo compounds.[16] > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-16> > > Silicon compounds may possibly be biologically useful under temperatures > or pressures different from the surface of a terrestrial planet, either in > conjunction with or in a role less directly analogous to carbon. > Polysilanols, the silicon compounds corresponding to sugars > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sugar>, are soluble in liquid nitrogen, > suggesting that they could play a role in very-low-temperature biochemistry. > [17] > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-17> > [18] > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothetical_types_of_biochemistry#cite_note-18> > > In cinematic and literary science fiction, at a moment when man-made > machines cross from nonliving to living, it is often posited,[*by whom? > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Words_to_watch#Unsupported_attributions>* > ] this new form would be the first example of non-carbon-based life. > Since the advent of the microprocessor > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microprocessor> in the late 1960s, these > machines are often classed as computers > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer> (or computer-guided robots > <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robot>) and filed under "silicon-based > life", even though the silicon backing matrix of these processors is not > nearly as fundamental to their operation as carbon is for "wet life". > > Do you think there is something about the carbon atoms vs silicon atoms that is important to feeling? Can "carbon" atoms alone be happy or sad? Can a carbon atom alone be alive? I think carbon was selected because it can hold bonds with up to 4 other atoms, making it a useful atomic glue for large structures. Things like life and consciousness do not exist at the atomic level, they are large scale processes that emerge from many complex interactions. We know that a computer can replicate the processes and behaviors of any interaction, so long as it is finite. This is evidence that a computer could fool us into thinking it is conscious, and that we could implement hybrid brains with biological and synthetic neurons. What then of the qualia of such functionally indistinguishable minds? Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to [email protected]. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/everything-list/CA%2BBCJUhCuy57%2B1s6GX_L8A50DraaWyA1bxQrOgK6DLKg64KKQA%40mail.gmail.com.
